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[LuseKofte]

IL2 was not a modding paradise given to us CVMW, it was hacked. You are really misleading here.
If anyone crack ROF and BOS , well good luck, I would not pay for that lawsuit
Ofcourse they protect what is theirs. I don't see anyone criticize DCS for the same type of finance. But the pre assumptions and judgement are more political than anything else.
I respect anyones opinion about a game, and I insist everyone here to do the same.
It is when people are being called idiots for liking a game I get upset.
CVMW I disagree totally the LAGG all the russian planes got excellent game physics and FM. Roll rate might be off. but compared to COD and DCS P-51 I really cannot place your critique other places than highly subjective

['MadDog']

Modding is what keeps games alive. Half Life 1 was selling lots of copies for almost 10 years because you needed it to play Counter Strike.
Modding also can vastly increase sales of games. Look at Arma 2, they tripled their sales after DayZ was becoming popular because you needed Arma 2 to play DayZ, and Arma 2 is a military simulator with a rather narrow demographic that went mainstream thanks to mods.

Silent Hunter 3 is much more popular than Silent Hunter 5 because 3 is very easily modded, and 5 has a stupid DRM and is quite hard to mod easily.

So one could say that business-wise, you can earn a lot of money by opening your game to mods. Be too closed up and too conservative and your game will die because it's not evolving and the players will move to new games, leaving only a small band of die-hard enthusiasts.
One can have all the new maps, skins, effects and tweaks one want to but with 8 planes in the box BoS will be extraordinarily dull to make new missions for, and severely limited in several ways.

Lets ponder the planes for a moment. You have 2 nations, 8 planes (10 if one gets the "Premium" version of the game) and one specific part of the eastern front.
Modders need to take this into account if they want to make historical missions since only 8 planes will be used, so Romania, Hungary, Italy, Slovakia and Finland is almost out already if one was hoping they would fly some indigenous designs such as the IAR 80, the "Buffalo", the G.50 or the Gladiator. We won't be able to add these planes ourselves, we will have to make do with reskinned 109's, Stukas or Heinkel bombers.

However, i am confident that with focusing on only 8 or 10 planes we can accept perfect characteristics and flying models for these planes if all development time for the planes went in to perfect these 10 instead of making 30 "ok" planes.

Now let's ponder the maps and any possible custom maps and missions.
The single player campaign will focus between November 1942 and February 1943, so we can presume the planes will feature the equipment and parts considered standard or new for that timeframe. That will severely limit any modders wanting to step out of that narrow timeframe.
Want to make a Barbarossa map? Cool! Just remember that every plane in there will be 1942 - 43 specs, save for perhaps the Me109 F4. No I-16s, No I-153s and so on.
Want to make a cool map of "Operation Bagration" in 1944? Awesome! Just remember that all your planes on that map will be at least 2 years old by then.
Missionmakers will have to stick to the 1942 - 1943 timeframe and stick to the eastern front for missions to be believable, plausible and not anachronistic to the point of sillyness.

Western powers? Nope. Not with mods anyway. If we want to fly as RAF we will need to reskin a Yak.1 and pretend that it's a Spitfire until the devs deem us worthy of adding our modded planes, or they decide to make their own Spitfires and sell them to us plane by plane, RoF-style.

I am sure that this game will be a great game for what it is simulating, namely aerial combat on the front of Stalingrad in the winter of 1942 - 43 with 10 planes featuring nice graphics and a great flightmodel, but the novelty and excitement will fade quite rapidly if the content modders are allowed to make is restricted to maps, skins, effects and tweaking.

I will still get the game. But not on release, i will get it on a sale in a year or two, as i did with RoF, when mods and tweaks are aplenty.

Quite a bizarre post there. Sounds like you would like a commercial enterprise to be open source so that people can do what they like with it. Il2 BoS does what it says on the tin, no more and no less. We don't want RAF or USAAF planes unless they're lend-lease appropriate to the scenario. When BoS succeeds as I am sure it will there will very likely be expansions, first of the front and then of the theatre and this will happen in a shorter time frame than it took for IL2 to expand.

This sim sure isn't being created for the benefit of the modding community, it's for people who want to fly this scenario, part of the greatest airwarfare scenario ever to take place on this planet. The BoB was a vicarage tea party in comparison.

Stick with 1946 if you want every aircraft under the sun. I prefer a microcosm where flying feels more like reality and the environment bears some relation to the real world in terms of laws of physics. It's detail and not scope that matters in this sim.

[Raticon]

I have a firm belief that applications that are open to certain degrees to the users are more prone to success in the long run than applications closed off, only for the developers to utilize and alter.
Gaming history shows us this. Moddable, accessible engines and platforms have had bigger successes than the closed off ones. This is a fact.

"When BoS succeeds as I am sure it will there will very likely be expansions"
Now you are just drawing big assumptions here, it's IF it succeeds. RoF hasn't got it's career mode out of beta yet and it's been 5 years since release, and given that they removed the DRM on that one 1 year after release because it was hurting sales one could assume it wasn't such a big hit they wanted it to be, and as such the career mode is dragging on for 4 years? That isn't very promising.

So, if the game succeeds we will perhaps get some cool expansions. If it fails we won't even get a complete game?

I have said many times that i think this game will we good at what it wants, but without more content it will probably never grow as big as 1946.
And you said yourself that success will perhaps make expansions come true, but if it's not a success are we stuck with a expansionless, unmoddable game?

EDIT: Fine. I yield. After reading into your replies and reading on the official website and other forums i guess i'll have to accept the fact that this will be a $55 flying sim with 8 planes, a 4 month historical timescope, no modded planes and instead a business model in some aspects similar to RoF where we perhaps may buy planes and equipment off the developers store and that we maybe will get expansion packs for the game in the future if it's a success.

[SAS~Tom2]

IL2 was not a modding paradise given to us CVMW, it was hacked. You are really misleading here.
If anyone crack ROF and BOS , well good luck, I would not pay for that lawsuit
Ofcourse they protect what is theirs. I don't see anyone criticize DCS for the same type of finance. But the pre assumptions and judgement are more political than anything else.
I respect anyones opinion about a game, and I insist everyone here to do the same.
It is when people are being called idiots for liking a game I get upset.
CVMW I disagree totally the LAGG all the russian planes got excellent game physics and FM. Roll rate might be off. but compared to COD and DCS P-51 I really cannot place your critique other places than highly subjective

That is funny in case you suggest the DCS P-51D is inferior . Never flew DCS planes, only that FC crap. But the DCS P-51D is said (by pilots who fly P-51Ds on displays!) to be spot on. Same with some forum pilots here.

Not to suggest buying DCS. Each to his own! IMO it is not only the planes and FMs but also the environment and show me any sim that offers more than IL-2 and modded maps. 

['MadDog']

I have a firm belief that applications that are open to certain degrees to the users are more prone to success in the long run than applications closed off, only for the developers to utilize and alter.
Gaming history shows us this. Moddable, accessible engines and platforms have had bigger successes than the closed off ones. This is a fact.

"When BoS succeeds as I am sure it will there will very likely be expansions"
Now you are just drawing big assumptions here, it's IF it succeeds. RoF hasn't got it's career mode out of beta yet and it's been 5 years since release, and given that they removed the DRM on that one 1 year after release because it was hurting sales one could assume it wasn't such a big hit they wanted it to be, and as such the career mode is dragging on for 4 years? That isn't very promising.

So, if the game succeeds we will perhaps get some cool expansions. If it fails we won't even get a complete game?

I have said many times that i think this game will we good at what it wants, but without more content it will probably never grow as big as 1946.
And you said yourself that success will perhaps make expansions come true, but if it's not a success are we stuck with a expansionless, unmoddable game?

Then by your firm belief, BoS is more prone to success in the long run as it is open to a certain degree and is not a closed application. There are whole groups of people who are already utilizing the FMB and creating maps and altering things.

If the sim fails as a commercial enterprise then what we have is a flight sim that is great to fly, a complete flight sim as advertised, ie the Battle of Stalingrad.

This sim doesn't want nor pretend to be like 1946, even the stock version. Every other version is a hacked copy, some of which I like personally. TFM and HSFX in particular.

If it's not a success then the market has spoken. Some will continue to fly it much as with CloD. Another sim that I very much like and fly regularly.

From my view there is no need to modify what works well. There are very good reasons why people wanted to modify IL2 Original. But if in 5 years time someone modifies BoS to work with DirectX 11 for example and makes it shine graphically like nothing else then I am sure I would be interested. Mind you, they would end up in court and so might I if I used it.

[Raticon]

Well, then it has the potential for success with some people that are happy with a 4 month time window and a handful of planes flying all kinds of missions, but you seem to fail to realize that no matter how many maps or alterations you make you are still constrained with 8 planes between late-42 and mid-43 in the stock version. In reality, this mean that we can make a million maps and as many alterations as we humanly can but we are still limited to Germany and the USSR with 8 planes flying over the Eastern front between November 1942 and February 1943. One can't step outside those boundaries with new planes or the ability to mod the existing planes, which the dev's have said we can't do.

You do have to realize that it will constraint modding. What if you want to make a Barbarossa scenario? You can't if you dont want to make it very silly and anachronistic with planes from 1942 and 43 flying a Barbarossa mission set in 1941. What about the Battle of Kursk? Operation Bagration? Siege of Leningrad? Battle of the Crimea? Missions set in 1944, 1945 with only planes from 1942 - early 43? BoS is fine if i am happy with those constraints, but i am not. I want barbarossa, Crimea and the battle for berlin, and thus BoS will not be the ultimate game for me.

These are modding limits. Given the unmoddable set of planes, unability to add new ones we can't fly missions outside of the fixed timeframe of late '42 to mid '43 and that will hamper it's success with us who are interested in more than just 8 planes from 2 countries flying during 4 months of the Stalingrad campaign.

So, in a sense BoS has the potential for great success as well as it has the potential for horrible failure. For me, it all depends on how much the game will be supported in the future and if we will get new content to use. Believe me, very few people are going to stick with this game for 10 years if there won't be more than a handful of planes and such a narrow scope as it has now. I, for one, likes variation and i would surely have fun with BoS for a while, but sooner or later i will get fed up with 8 planes and the lack of variation and move on. Part of what makes 1946 stand the test of time the way it does is the fact that thanks to mods we can fly everything from WW1 era Fokkers and Nieuports battling over the western front with flimsy machine guns in 1916 to MiG 17's and Thunderjets duking it out with heat seeking missiles over Korea in 1956.

The best part of it? I can choose without limits whatever i want. 1946 is like a big candyshop where i can choose whatever i want from hundreds of boxes and enjoy it.
With BoS i can choose but only within with very sharp limits and timeframes. It's like being in the same huge candyshop but restricted to one or 2 boxes among hundreds.

['MadDog']

Your analogy to a candyshop is not appropriate unless you plan on walking out without paying for your sweets. Virtually none of the mods for IL2 Original involve a transaction. The original devs stopped making money out of it a long time ago as people either pick it up for peanuts or pirate it. That is no recipe for success.

If BoS proves to be fruitful then the Devs have already said they will expand both the plane-set and the front/theatre. Such expansion may run alongside or not, we don't know, but it won't be BoS it will be Battle of Somewhere Else. It would be a nonsense to fly a foreign plane-set in a foreign theatre under the name of BoS. So I would be happy forever more to fly BoS when I wanted to fly Operation Uranus campaigns and when I fancy something else I will fly it. Success breeds success, it is contagious and if there is demand it will be met I am confident.

[LuseKofte]

IL2 was not a modding paradise given to us CVMW, it was hacked. You are really misleading here.
If anyone crack ROF and BOS , well good luck, I would not pay for that lawsuit
Ofcourse they protect what is theirs. I don't see anyone criticize DCS for the same type of finance. But the pre assumptions and judgement are more political than anything else.
I respect anyones opinion about a game, and I insist everyone here to do the same.
It is when people are being called idiots for liking a game I get upset.
CVMW I disagree totally the LAGG all the russian planes got excellent game physics and FM. Roll rate might be off. but compared to COD and DCS P-51 I really cannot place your critique other places than highly subjective

That is funny in case you suggest the DCS P-51D is inferior . Never flew DCS planes, only that FC crap. But the DCS P-51D is said (by pilots who fly P-51Ds on displays!) to be spot on. Same with some forum pilots here.

Not to suggest buying DCS. Each to his own! IMO it is not only the planes and FMs but also the environment and show me any sim that offers more than IL-2 and modded maps. 

I am not saying DCS P-51 is inferior, far from it, but the cool guys has approved it an then the rest of the sim fanboys follow their lead. Only DCS can walk free from any criticism.
But frankly, when I manage to take off in it, fly it and land it. Don´t give me the crap it is realistic. It is a game as anyone else, and it is the users subjective opinion that judge it.
I have discussed this with a huge amount of people and their answer are always the same, " I got a friend that is a pilot"
Well game physics and feel of flight , you only need to sit in a plane.
Personally I have had control over a cessna plane multiple times, and even flown a Robinson chopper for a minute or two. I do not regard myself any more capable of inter sim judgement.
BOS is what it is, and I like it so far. I think it got a huge potential. And for those only flew IL 2 it is a massive improvement in all its narrow theatre.
I would not delete my IL 2 install for any of the alternatives we got.

[SAS~Tom2]

I can dig up the thread at DCS: The P-51 was tested by the real horsemen and found to be highly realistic.
A forum friend here is a pilot and also says it is magnificent.
I have not flown it nor any other real plane.

['MadDog']

Both the DCS P-51 and the A2A P-51 get a similar thumbs up from people who have actually flown the warbird in question. A2A have a Korea War era veteran on their development and testing staff who says it's the dog's proverbials. These two sims seem to have gotten close to some sense of cockpit reality.

[LuseKofte]

I find it very realistic, but if it really is. I can take a real one and fly it.
I have never seen a sim , managing to simulate a proper ground loop. DCS got a unbeatable pit. but the fm is for me not that different from cod and bos.
Because it is a simulation of a real world not the real thing.

[LuseKofte]

That said, I will be a regular flyer of DCS the moment they got objects maps and effects matching the planes. I probably fly it exclusive if they give me a B-17 or 24 Think what DCS would have made of a heavy :DROOL:

Here is the newest video from HH Pauk
see reply #67