Special Aircraft Service
The SAS Factory - Tech Help, Ancient Mods etc. => IL-2 Great Battles => The Keepsake: Old Mod Packs, Game Versions and Guest Mods => IL-2 Great Battles Lounge => Topic started by: shoresroad on September 22, 2014, 02:56:23 AM
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...and all I can say is thank god for Team Daidalos, SAS1946 and Mission4Today!
Loft has said he comes from a hardcore IL-2 1946 MP background and it is obvious he hasn't got a clue how to make a product for the single player community which he admits is the primary customer base for combat flight sims. I actually kind of feel sorry for the guy...I'm out $100 but he's built an Edsel.
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Single player sims ended with IL 2, none got anything close to it , and it never will be any better
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsqZ33ZMnC8
I hate games where you need to unlock stuff, this isnt how things worked in the Luftwaffe :D
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I must admit there is some very narrow thinking going on here and some totally inaccurate mud slinging too. For the paper plane fans, ROF has been a great success and the SP component I am informed is good. Loft is correct when he says that the great majority of flight simmers are single player types and as such occupy the ground of the silent majority perhaps. The MP crowd is much more vocal but is not the focus. A lot of effort is being put into the BoS SP and to prematurely dismiss it all is just daft.
I have played very many IL2 1946 SP campaigns and enjoyed them tremendously but they are not the last word, there is much that can be improved. I think that BoS will go a long way to bring that about. It's amusing that Loft gets criticised when the single player release is not even available in Early Access. Give them a chance to craft the thing first!
Already BoS MP is better than 1946 MP ever was in my view. I think their iteration for SP will follow the same path. As always, tempi cambi , and we shall see.
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... same with me, when I buy a TV set or a car I expect to get all I paid for at once, without having to unlock anything ...! :-X
This is a very bad concept that will deter solo players from buying the sim ... :'(
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What ? is the first look at the single player campaign something like this ? :o
(http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac90/HolyGrail_photos/shocked-boy.gif)
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Well, the first look is a good occasion to increase your post count on BoS forums
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I must admit there is some very narrow thinking going on here and some totally inaccurate mud slinging too. For the paper plane fans, ROF has been a great success and the SP component I am informed is good. Loft is correct when he says that the great majority of flight simmers are single player types and as such occupy the ground of the silent majority perhaps. The MP crowd is much more vocal but is not the focus. A lot of effort is being put into the BoS SP and to prematurely dismiss it all is just daft.
I have played very many IL2 1946 SP campaigns and enjoyed them tremendously but they are not the last word, there is much that can be improved. I think that BoS will go a long way to bring that about. It's amusing that Loft gets criticised when the single player release is not even available in Early Access. Give them a chance to craft the thing first!
Already BoS MP is better than 1946 MP ever was in my view. I think their iteration for SP will follow the same path. As always, tempi cambi , and we shall see.
dude, show me another sim where you need to unlock skins ;)
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I hate games where you need to unlock stuff, this isnt how things worked in the Luftwaffe :D
That's interesting because IRL it was the 'experten' who got to customize their individual aircraft with bespoke liveries. This was allowed as they had earned it. I like how in BoS we will have to do the same kind of thing. If we want to fly with our chosen skin then we will have to pay our dues. Otherwise we have to fly along with the rest of the dweebs.
Just because previous sims had a specific way of doing their thing, it doesn't mean that all future sims have to follow the same path. Change is inevitable, it will come and we can embrace it and explore it or refuse to face it. The choice is ours.
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As long as it stays within the SP campaign I am quite ok.
The problem is that the unlock is, for the moment, necessary for MP, QMB ...
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From what the devs have told the community, it will be possible to fly with community made skins so online squadrons can fly as a recognizable unit. I imagine that skins on/ skins off will be a server side setting so community servers will be able to have things how they like. This is already showing up in the various community servers present to some degree.
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I hate games where you need to unlock stuff, this isnt how things worked in the Luftwaffe :D
That's interesting because IRL it was the 'experten' who got to customize their individual aircraft with bespoke liveries. This was allowed as they had earned it. I like how in BoS we will have to do the same kind of thing. If we want to fly with our chosen skin then we will have to pay our dues. Otherwise we have to fly along with the rest of the dweebs.
Just because previous sims had a specific way of doing their thing, it doesn't mean that all future sims have to follow the same path. Change is inevitable, it will come and we can embrace it and explore it or refuse to face it. The choice is ours.
The game is called IL-2 Sturmovik Battle of Stalingrad so one would expect an il-2 style campaign engine...unlocking is for kids who play arcade games.
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That is incorrect my friend. BoS carries the name IL2 Sturmovik not because it contains legacy modes of play but because it contains DNA originating with the original. That DNA still exists because 1C Game Studios is born from an amalgam of 1C and 777 studios and some of the staff would certainly have worked on the Maddox team.
Unlocks is just a facet of the mode, it has nothing to with 'kids who play arcade games'. This is a below the belt attempt at ridicule which has no basis in fact.
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Loft is not a visionary of change, and he's no Oleg Maddox. He's just a dude who bought the IL-2 brand and built an Edsel and its very disappointing. Unlocks have been around since the Gold Box days and aren't original thinking. Loft is a dog with a bone who wanted a bigger bone (the arcade crowd) and has dropped the bone he had.
But, the good news is we still have IL-2 1946! Used to be each new generation of games was a mega leap in graphics, but not so much anymore. And no way I would trade the lame game play I've seen so far in BoS for the game play in 1946 just for the eye candy. BoS is a very pretty game with great sound, but its the kind of game that makes you go "Wow" and then set it down 20 minutes later because its too shallow. Its like a Vegas showgirl. BoS is very similar to Wings of Prey in that way. Loft has turned his back on what made 1946 great - its DCG and FMB which are both missing in BoS.
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The brand is moving on and it's leaving you behind. The EA community is growing well and contains many of the well-known characters of the bygone age of 1946. Enjoy what you fly, that's what matters.
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Please, dont talk about the "bygone age of 1946" on this forum. ;)
The only area where BoS beats modded IL-2 is graphics/3d.
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Why not, it's a nostalgic term of endearment, a respectful nod to one of the bedrock combat flight sims? Furthermore, this sub-forum is for Battle of Stalingrad so please practice what you preach!
For your personal info, BoS beats IL2-1946 in significant areas, not least the fact that it pays much greater attention to the physics and aerodynamics involved. Graphics are superior yes but still inferior to CloD I would say. This is a compromise to widen the playability base and keep the game engine within known parameters. By the time of release there will be much which is more advanced than how it was done before. This is to be expected, these things will improve over time and the 1946 engine is limiting progress sharply.
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And Loft has said the BoS engine has limited the ability to produce a DCG and FMB without extraordinary effort. So its not progress at all, its a tradeoff - flight dynamics and graphics for game play. I'll take the latter. BoS has the depth of a console game.
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And Loft has said the BoS engine has limited the ability to produce a DCG and FMB without extraordinary effort. So its not progress at all, its a tradeoff - flight dynamics and graphics for game play. I'll take the latter. BoS has the depth of a console game.
Depends on what you want from a flight sim. I look for the accurate portrayal of the environment in both flight physics/aerodynamics and graphics. Currently, the BoS action is only MP and that is getting really good in for example the Syndicate server which is missions based. These will expand exponentially and provide a lot of depth. For me, gameplay as you call it is of less import.
The FMB will be released some time after general release, a few people already have it. This time next year there will be lots of user made content, that much is clear. If you don't like that, don't buy it - I kind of assume that you aren't flying it - but there is a lot of enthusiasm for how it's developing amongst a great many of the long serving 'hardcore' flight simmers.
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And Loft has said the BoS engine has limited the ability to produce a DCG and FMB without extraordinary effort. So its not progress at all, its a tradeoff - flight dynamics and graphics for game play. I'll take the latter. BoS has the depth of a console game.
The FMB will be released some time after general release, a few people already have it. This time next year there will be lots of user made content, that much is clear. If you don't like that, don't buy it - I kind of assume that you aren't flying it - but there is a lot of enthusiasm for how it's developing amongst a great many of the long serving 'hardcore' flight simmers.
I have owned the BoS Premium Edition for over 6 months and the FMB is my last hope for the game. If they do it right where we can create true campaigns and not just single missions the community can step away from the console game concept BoS has become. But I'll grant you that many MP players just don't understand the fun SP players have with the IL-2 1946 DCG or community made campaigns using the FMB, and many SP players just don't understand the fun MP players have with any of the IL-2 games. BoS seems to be doing MP well from what I can tell on the BoS forum and that's great. SP players are screaming bloody murder right now on every forum where BoS is discussed. And yes, I've been on the BoS MP servers and that play style just doesn't interest me but I'm glad you are having fun with it.
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I must admit there is some very narrow thinking going on here and some totally inaccurate mud slinging too. For the paper plane fans, ROF has been a great success and the SP component I am informed is good. Loft is correct when he says that the great majority of flight simmers are single player types and as such occupy the ground of the silent majority perhaps. The MP crowd is much more vocal but is not the focus. A lot of effort is being put into the BoS SP and to prematurely dismiss it all is just daft.
I have played very many IL2 1946 SP campaigns and enjoyed them tremendously but they are not the last word, there is much that can be improved. I think that BoS will go a long way to bring that about. It's amusing that Loft gets criticised when the single player release is not even available in Early Access. Give them a chance to craft the thing first!
Already BoS MP is better than 1946 MP ever was in my view. I think their iteration for SP will follow the same path. As always, tempi cambi , and we shall see.
What do you expect, they said them self that ME was shait, I hope they come up with a possibility to make campaigns. There are just not much to expect from official publisher in the long run. IL2 survived so long because of community made campaigns.
You should not be too touchy , Loft himself has not gotten any criticism for the SP mode , I just do not think it is going to happened.
They said they will not publish a campaign that is connected either
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I pre-ordered BOS and have loaded every patch and still I try it then
resume making missions in IL2.
From what I have read about their FMB it appears that I have
waisted my money.
shame really.
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I fly it on a daily bases, Bos is really closer to IL 2 than Clod ever was. If ME one day are working properly , there are very good reasons for being optimistic.
Dedicated servers like Syndicate , are very fun to fly in. With transport missions that works.
My impression however , with new games in general , is that Single player are generally ignored, and I think it will be in this one too
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My impression however , with new games in general , is that Single player are generally ignored, and I think it will be in this one too
Unfortunately you're probably right about that, and that's what makes BoS so disappointing for many Single players. The IL-2 brand had always been different in that respect, so hopes were high for great Single player content once again.
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as an 'outsider looking in', and really one of many who is watching the development of this sim, and planning to buy it once/if it ever offers enough to be worth the price, i really wish that instead of all the pro and con back and forthing concerning the campaign - i see names being thrown about, like 'Edsel', for example, yet there is no clear attempt at offering us a brief description about what the campaign actually consists of.
the thread starts with a 'i've seen it, and it sucks' kind of comment, yet nothing is offered to help us who don't yet play it, as to telling us what it's all about.
i really wish the same effort would be put into that, as opposed to all the shouting about how good/bad it is.
not much here to help anyone who is still deciding on this sim, in fact, if anything, it makes me want to walk away from the ridiculous politics, and simply continue playing IL-2, which, to me and many others, is alive and well, and still kicking every other sim's ass, as far as content is concerned, anyway.
it's these sort of 'insider only' threads that tend to switch many people off, before they've even begun.
if the aim is to get more players interested in BoS, then this sort of thread simply has the reverse effect, i'm afraid.
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Malone
It isn't up to threads like this one to tell the world what BoS is all about. There is so much info out there that anyone can access. The sim has its own website and there are already plenty of reviews of Early Acess. No-one can give you an idea of what the SP campaign is about or like as it's not been released yet, not even for EA.
If one listens to hysteria one is likely to feel as you do. The numbers of people playing this sim are already in their thousands and growing, it is being managed in a way that CloD could only dream of. It is going to have success and will be developed for years to come. If you want to get some idea of what it actually is then take a good look at some of the tutorial videos done as aircraft guides. There is a lot of community made content already. All I can say is that there is great immersion here, much more so than in IL2-1946, the force is strong with this one and it isn't even out on release. I can see it, others can't but as a general pointer I would say that what we have so far is looking like a half-way house between the DCS study sim concept and the wonderful sandbox that Il2-1946 was and still is.
You are so right about content and that takes time as it did for Oleg et al. BoS has been in development for less than 18 months and they have built something of quality in that time. I fly it several times a week and it is constantly improving in scope and detail. Those that wish to find fault will always do so as nothing in life is perfect and no beta software is fully developed and bug free. For me, I love to sim fly and have used them all since 2001. This one will be around for a long time and has a well managed dev team behind it. So take a dip or don't, the online squadrons are having a ball over there. I love SP campaigns and will always fly that way too, I love the historical immersion of them. I don't think I will be disappointed.
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What the single player campaign does have is infinite re-playability every time you fly a mission it is generated, so they are different each time..to me the term "grind" which keeps being said relates to having to repeat the exact same mission to continue or whatever, remembering spawn points..number of aircraft etc.
A great mission will always get repetitive after a number of replays..no matter how well it was constructed, now in BoS that problem is gone you never know if you can be bounced at any time what extra targets you may come across..are they an ace squad or a bunch of rookies, for SP replay this is a great feature which is being overlooked..and if you substitute progression for "unlock" it suddenly does not seem so terrible :)
People who have been testing the FMB making missions for MP have commented how versatile and feature full it is and within one week of exposure have been able to easily get to grips with it. Despite all the negatives (all without substance..it is not released yet) the possibilities for the future generally look rather exiting.
There have been a number of issues along the development that have led to huge amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth 90% of which turned out to be over-reactions and have been fixed or turned out to be non issues.
To say BoS is just original IL-2 with better graphics is really a surprising attitude there is so much more depth on so many levels, by all means wait for final release and a few months of patches and additional content before trying but this constant desire to shoot it down before it even gets out of the door baffles me :)
Cheers Dakpilot
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... since I am not sure of what I read, could someone please explain the "unlock" function in solo campaigns ...?
Does this mean for ex, that if I am currently flying the Bf109 F4, and would like now to fly the G2, I'll have to first fly the ... Ju87 (???) for some time, in order to "unlock" the G2 ...?
Does it mean that if, for ex, I want to fly a solo mission that some other guy made, and I need, say, bombs, but I have not yet "unlocked" those bombs, I won't be able to fly the mission ...?
Is it the same for ... skins ...? ???
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Well, I am active in many sites. I am one of those fighters that fight hard against political reasons for not liking BOS, witch narrows down to the abandoned BOM and CLOD.
There are many that actively campaign for getting people not to buy BOS, they continuously spread lies and so called true FM judgement on it. And they have never tried it.
I have no respect for such people , and that have made me a marked man.
However I respect any individual choosing not to buy it, or bought it and do not like it.
For me BOS is worth every dime I payed for it, it is great fun and add all those things you miss in IL 2. The russian planes are just awesome , the German ones are to me not. But the Heinkel is good fun, and fairly easy to learn level bombing.
Many in CLOD society claim it is easier to bomb with the simplified loft sight. Well I am the best there is in clod, I have bombed ships from 6000 mtrs in ATAG server.
I find BOS to be much harder, first you really need to navigate, there are no landmarks. You need to set a straight course and time your advancement. And the EXCELENT physics make the plane fairly difficult and realistic to maneuver the plane into a good bombing run.
It is frustrating, maybe or maybe not realistic , that the planes loose their wings easily and burn very easy. In the long run that kills the fun. There should be a little more than a short burst that kills a bomber.
I am not saying it is not realistic, but it is not playable in the long run in a bomber.
All in all I love BOS, and recommend it to all, I am glad I am into it now. Because I will know the map better than everyone that later join the game. I have increased my playtime to. 50% clod, 35% BOs, 10 % IL2 and 5 % DCS.
A month ago it was 70% Clod, 20% IL2 10% BOS and no DCS
The reason for shorter time in BOS is really only the time it takes to do a mission, you need only 45 minutes to take off and find a target and get back and land.
In CLOD it can take up to 1,5 hours, so in reality I play equal amount of missions on CLOD and BOS
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Until it's released the SP campaign will remain something of an enigma perhaps. The devs have released a video explaining how in principle it will work but many questions will remain unanswered of course until we can jump in and fly. My impression it that these campaigns will be structured and not totally free to be tweaked in any way that you like. Remember though that the release campaigns are simply that and in time the community will make plenty of their own campaigns and missions just as in 1946.
There is no reason to suppose that once the FMB is released you, Mick, won't be able to craft your very own personal campaign just as you like it, within reason. The anti-BoS crowd would have you believe that the devs are simply spoon feeding the community and we will have to like it or lump it but what they are cooking up is a much more open sandbox ultimately. They provide the framework and the community will paint by numbers. The piece de resistance is in our own hands.
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I agree very much, Maddog. I can do missions in clod and IL2 and I am sure I can do them in BOS also. But the interface are much harder, and the scripting.
The scripting I have done are mostly copy paste work, and it is like every thing in life, if you want to learn it you will.
Personally I liked Syndicate server in ROF, so I have high hopes for it in BOS.
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Wait for release to avoid unnecessary hand wringing.. ;) it is all speculation at this point how it (unlocks)will be implemented over various gameplay aspects.
With the latest update fuel tank fires have had likelihood reduced, although many continue to insist that due to a translated vague quote from months ago that DM is finalised and will not be reviewed, each update has brought changes and improvements. Fuel fire possibility is effected by tank content and it seems this is being adjusted
Cheers Dakpilot
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It will be great to see almost empty aircraft burning more easily than fully fuelled ones as should be the case.
I am already a fan of Syndicate, LeOne. I normally go straight for that server now, the missions are really good and the server is being tweaked really nicely. Syndicate has the hallmarks of being a real quality destination for BoS pilots.
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the thread starts with a 'i've seen it, and it sucks' kind of comment, yet nothing is offered to help us who don't yet play it, as to telling us what it's all about.
i really wish the same effort would be put into that, as opposed to all the shouting about how good/bad it is.
We are talking about this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guA-Cm9jDRs
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... THX, MadDog, like you I hope the FMB won't be "locked" to the point that we can't even chose our skin ...
The only worry left is that it looks like when the game is released there won't be any FMB coming with it ... :'(
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From one of the "testers" with FMB
"I am starting to become VERY amused when everyone is DEMANDING an IL2 FMB. the RoF/BoS Editor is NOT as complicated as many are attempting to make it out to be. in fact I would venture to say MOST of the people slagging it have NEVER once opened it up to actually learn it. Once Aborted Man and I opened up the editor and started tinkering, we had a fun, multi faceted mission to play for the whole community in under two weeks. Thats literally 0 to Full blown MP mission in 10 days. The editor is just fine.
I can see MANY new SP scenarios coming out when people get a hold of it after release. And with mod sites up with Groups being shared, it will cut the learning time to fractions of what it would be having to create entire missions from scratch over and over.
Ive said it before, even the Devs underestimate the WWII community, I am very excited to see what people come up with."
Cheers Dakpilot
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Just those proven to handle it are going to have access to FMB.
And frankly I do understand it, the way the community have reacted on a beta version they are not ready for another beta. Everybody judge this as a finished game from the start. They open their post with, I know this is a beta , but bla bla bladdedy bla my opinion is bla bla bla. and you are doing it wrong
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Just those proven to handle it are going to have access to FMB.
I thought they decided to release the FMB to everyone?
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The people who have it now are a few individuals/groups known to the devs probably through the RoF editor. The FMB is very much restricted to this small group for the moment but some time after intital release of the product the FMB is due to come out on a general release.
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It does not seem to matter how many times the Devs say the FMB will be released to Everyone another "factual rumour" will be spread (no reference to you Leone) saying It's only for the "selected few" or for "777 elite buddies"...
The fact is the game is in Beta, to release it when the game is not in its finished state, will lead to bugs, incompatibilities with updates and general misery for all those trying to learn it and create missions, same with running servers in Beta state.
Hence a small group of testers using the RoF/BoS beta editor to bug track and generally turn it into the BoS editor. When it is ready and the game is released it will be made available to everyone
Cheers Dakpilot
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Poll: What do you think of the Single Player Campaign for BoS?
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4012983/1
Looks like I'm not a deviant after all...
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According to Loft, the target audience for BoS are not the type of players who frequent a BBS.
So good or bad word of mouth through social media will have no impact on the sales of BoS.
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A quick message from the centre ground:
Sims have two goals - immersion and content. The former to provide the best possible moment-to-moment experience, the latter to keep that experience fresh and relevant for as wide a player base as possible. So far so uncontroversial, right? Of course both CloD and BoS offer increased immersion over Il2 - with the improved graphics, sound, physics etc. The same 'of course' doesn't apply to player preferences. Largely, I think, this is because the content isn't persuasive. However, one day the content of these new sims will match what we privileged Il2 pilots have become used to (which is why it's essential devs open up their games to be as mod friendly as possible). At this point any new sim will be better than an old one. Till that point each player will sit on a spectrum between immersion and content, and they'll become a convert to the new when the balance of the two suits their preferences. Which is a good thing.
To worry.about BoS now is silly. I couldn't give a hoot about its first crack at an SP campaign. It's being developed for a particular market, to which I don't belong, but in the future it will offer things I want. Can we ease off on the pissing contest and move on to providing useful information? Il2 (read 'the Il2 modding community') is totally sodding incredible. One day we'll all be saying the same about a new sim, and nothing will have been lost along the way.
Screwy
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IL-2's popularity lasted for more than a decade. This also makes it a "template" for future flightsims.
If you release a game called IL-2 Sturmovik BoS then follow the f'in template and dont go arcade.
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It's being developed for a particular market, to which I don't belong, but in the future it will offer things I want.
Screwy
This is what I need to remind myself of and just get over it. Although I would change the last part to: "...but in the future it will may offer things I want" as Loft has told the IL-2 BoS bbs/EA members on a number of occasions that we are not his target audience.
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It does not seem to matter how many times the Devs say the FMB will be released to Everyone another "factual rumour" will be spread (no reference to you Leone) saying It's only for the "selected few" or for "777 elite buddies"...
The fact is the game is in Beta, to release it when the game is not in its finished state, will lead to bugs, incompatibilities with updates and general misery for all those trying to learn it and create missions, same with running servers in Beta state.
Hence a small group of testers using the RoF/BoS beta editor to bug track and generally turn it into the BoS editor. When it is ready and the game is released it will be made available to everyone
Cheers Dakpilot
Sorry it will be releast with no mission editor, but they aim for all to have it after a while. The flight sim community has not shown itself from its best side , again and I cannot blame them for it. It will be a ME for all eventually tho.
I am pretty fed up already by flying online, here is what a team mate experienced , and the only difference in his experience and mine is he filmed it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRuhI3UXxOM&feature=youtu.be
And there are a awful mess with vulching . So I am glad for a campaign to fly. I think the community need to settle for a while
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IL-2's popularity lasted for more than a decade. This also makes it a "template" for future flightsims.
If you release a game called IL-2 Sturmovik BoS then follow the f'in template and dont go arcade.
Well in all fairness , it is far from arcade. It is actually a goos sim. It feels much like the old IL 2 but with much better and modern physics. It is really a sim that would grow within a properly managed server. I have many clod arcadish moments behind me, and it is always the community that makes that feeling
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It's being developed for a particular market, to which I don't belong, but in the future it will offer things I want.
Screwy
This is what I need to remind myself of and just get over it. Although I would change the last part to: "...but in the future it will may offer things I want" as Loft has told the IL-2 BoS bbs/EA members on a number of occasions that we are not his target audience.
... then I was right to no invest a single dime in it ...!
The CoD fiasco was a lesson we should remember ...
Anyway, the mere fact of having to "unlock" something (even skins it seems ...!!) I bought, pisses me off to such a degree that I'll now even wait for a long time after BoS is released before buying it (if I ever buy it) ...
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You are so wrong, and that attitude is one of the reasons for what there aren't any new flightsims around.
I am not going to force anyone to buy a game , but you are not only missing up on something, you are campaigning for other to follow the lead.
If I got money I would never invest I dime in combat flight sim. It is the most ungrateful community to serve in history, and it is no way to earn the money back.
I am very confident BOS is going to be a good sim, Syndicate server is a fine example of that.
It is a real treat flying in their server, deeming a game never tried is a epidemic right now. And it is your loss , do not make other make the same mistakes as you
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the reason IL-2 lasted as long as it has, is that it allows for an offline experience of note. if the aim is to draw in the same pathetic online only crowd, as illustrated in the previous friendly fire video, then they are alienating the very crowd that will allow the sim to last for a long time into the future.
their choice, of course. guess i'll just happily stick with IL-2, even with outdated graphics and such, i've always preferred to play at my own pace, in my own time.
if they don't care for players like me, but insist on pandering to the online only crowd, then good luck to them.
my guess is the sim will then go the way of the previous failures, as most of us are not interested in playing online with such freaks.
best of luck to them, is all i have to say. :D
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To me it seems like the campaign shares a significant amount of features with Red Baron's campaign, and that's not a bad thing.
For those who might not have played this 1990 PC game, it featured a campaign which was essentially a string of missions that were generated based on fixed templates, such as a dogfight mission, observation balloon destroy or defense mission, escort or stop bombers or reconnaissance planes. The missions were basically the same types that were accessible through single missions, which also randomized parametres when you would fly them, but the types of enemies would depend on the timeframe, and their number and position was more or less random. If you were assigned to a squadron that also had some historical aces in it, you would occasionally be assigned to fly with them, either as a wingman or leader depending on rank and amount of kills. And if you were flying on the region of the border where aces of the other side were operating, you would occasionally see them as well.
With promotions, you gained access to a personal aircraft and got the ability to paint your aircraft with non-standard colours. And, as the war progressed, new aircraft would become available and your squadron would eventually switch to newer, better aircraft.
I don't know if you need to "unlock" things before being able to use them in any game mode. But honestly even if that's the case, I don't really mind that. A bigger concern of mine is that BoS is going to be far less accommodating to modders when it comes to things like custom skins... or any other types of modifications, to be honest. Will there be modding tools available? Will the game data be exposed to poking around and learning how to imitate it? Will it even be possible to add data for the game engine to read?
These are in my mind far more pressing concerns than whether you need to "unlock" aircraft or skins or whatnot.
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You are so wrong, and that attitude is one of the reasons for what there aren't any new flightsims around.
I am not going to force anyone to buy a game , but you are not only missing up on something, you are campaigning for other to follow the lead.
If I got money I would never invest I dime in combat flight sim. It is the most ungrateful community to serve in history, and it is no way to earn the money back.
I am very confident BOS is going to be a good sim, Syndicate server is a fine example of that.
It is a real treat flying in their server, deeming a game never tried is a epidemic right now. And it is your loss , do not make other make the same mistakes as you
... I am not "so wrong" LeOne, nor am I "making a mistake", it is just that as a pure offliner and solo player, BoS doesn't appeal to me "as is" and doesn't correspond to my expectations, and I totally agree with what Malone wrote ...
When I BUY something, I don't expect to have to "unlock" whatever is included in the price ...
Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely nothing against BoS, long live BoS, it is just that compared to IL2-1946 with all its mods and maps and constant improvements, not to forget its FMB, BoS doesn't match it, even if it is way more eye candy ...
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Well, I disagree with the general opinion here , because I fly all current flightsims and are among the few not seeing that as a treason.
First off, anyone flown clod online knows it is not a failure, it is damn good and in ATAG server the results are quite historical, you might win the campaign on German side, but your loss rate are huge, the planes compare against each other in a very historical matter. The FM might not be entirely historic, but the tweaks done have made them very close to realism. You have to learn the hard way to be successful in this game. It is far from crap, concerning online use, offline well that is another story, totally inadequate. The need for a good rig has always been its bottleneck. But the sim itself is fantastic.
BOS got a lesser need for a good rig, it got excellent physics and the russian planes are so good, that alone is worth the money. Gamephysics are excellent better than clod. But FM on Luftwaffe planes does not feel right to me. The community in there are young and based on unorganized flying with majority not doing other things than searching for a enemy airbase and then gulch it, I take that as a sign of no abilities for navigating and they will grow fed up eventually.
Lofte sight on both games work pretty much the same way, in clod you need a great deal of key binding, and its autopilot work like a dream , in my opinion not historical, when you engage mode 22. in BOS you need no keybinding it is all mouse operated, the aiming and execution of the bombing are pretty much alike but in their own ways they give a challenge. BOS got different wind directions on different altitude, and the same goes for the strength. Clod only applies with ground wind.
Clod community operate in all altitudes, it is really a challenge and frustrating at times getting passed the fighters. BOS it alls happened on deck. You just need to gain altitude, witch take far less time than in clod.
They are both very satisfying to master, and if you miss out of it just because of political opinions it is your loss not mine.
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when i mentioned 'failures' before, what i meant is that they failed the offline crowd, like myself.
the sims themselves have a lot going for them.
sure, i might fly online on occasion, but at least 90% of my time is spent offline, and i do not intend to change that.
simple things, like being able to pause the game if i need to take a piss/feed the cat/answer the phone/etc, are critical in modern times, and being unable to do this while online (understandably) is simply not my cup of tea.
so, please bear this in mind when i say things like 'failure' - i do not intend it as a slight on what are obviously very impressive sims, but simply a failure to care for the offline players.
so, while it might sound negative, i cannot simply keep quiet on matters such as this.
i have played a little BoS online, and was very impressed with what i saw(thanks Otto :D), and i am sure the future will be great - but surely not at the expense of an offline experience, which might well make it the new 'best sim ever'
cheaters, team killers, base prowlers (whatever the name, lol) are all things i would rather do without, and let's face it, it is something that will forever plague the online experience, unless you fly with a nice squad - this, however, is often a logistical nightmare, only doable if every squad member is available at the same time, with working equipment, and the reality is that this is seldom possible, so that leaves many with little choice but to risk the public servers, and the troll types that they are inevitably filled with.
for me - no thanks, it's simply not worth it. cater for offline, and i will be along for the ride, absolutely. if not - i wait a few more years until such time as some developer considers offliners as a viable option.
damn, as an offline IL-2 player, i have bought multiple copies of the game, it's addons, updates, so they can't say the offliners aren't worth it.
if i'm forced into an online only, take it or leave it scenario, then for me the answer is a no-brainer - leave it.
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I'm confident i will get BoS some day, but i have to admit i don't like the "unlocking stuff" model of play.
I got Rise of Flight some time ago and although i really like the sounds, the looks and the feel of the planes i simply can't get over the fact that i have to pay a rather large sum of money, over $300 to get all 36-ish planes and fly with them, and then pay extra if i want to have another color on my scarf, a pistol for backup or a nice, colorful streamer to duct-tape to my wing when i fly.
I got Red Baron 2 ages ago and that came with many planes, a dynamic campaign, object viewer and much stuff like infantry assaults and such things that RoF doesn't have even this day.
It also applies online, as the plane modding community is basically non-existent as a thriving modding community would nullify the devs plane sales.
With that said i have bought a handful of planes i like there, mainly early ones and i do enjoy the game, but their business model was a bit of a dealbreaker that kept me away from the game until last winter when i got it and a plane pack on some sort of sale.
Just as a comparison, i got the first IL2 when it was released and it came with 31 or something planes in the box, and it did not cost $300, i can assure you.
Likewise, i played Battlefield 3 when it came out, as a great fan of the original BF1942 and battlefield 2 i could not pass on it. I liked the game but hated the fact i had to unlock guns, sights and stuff by grinding experience and leveling rather than have it like it used to be earlier, but i guess i'm only being old-fashioned and not going with the times as unlocks is common these days. I don't play BF4 for that reason.
Likewise as i did with RoF, i will probably do with BoS. I will definetly get it but at a later date, possibly years after release on some sale somewhere. For singleplayer i think the most important thing these days is to provide a dynamic campaign with loads of replayability and a true "front" that moves. It creates a type of immersion that gives the impression of playing in a "living" and active world.
What do i want to say with all this rambling then?
You can not satisfy everyone. Some people will love the features and make them buy the game on release. Some people will hate it so much they will never buy it and not even pirate it. Some people, like me, will find some stuff annoying and some stuff cool and simply just wait until you get the game for coffe-money! That way, i try to see it as i pay for the good stuff and the bad stuff comes along for free.
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History will show us ;) complaining about lack of offline content before a game is released, before the mission editor is released and comparing it to a game that has had lots of expansions and thousands of user made missions available over a ten year period seems more than daft.
Who cares about a couple of crap skins that come with the game...there are 4313 skin topics at RoF forums...the same will come in time to BoS
The whole "unlocking" thing will be a non issue after a week of play and pretty much a non issue to anyone who plays a bit of the SP campaign, however it may just encourage some more casual newcomers to progress a bit more than they otherwise would have
There are 1200 mission topics for RoF, already early efforts for persistent dynamic camaigns are showing promise, and new to the editor people are commenting on its versatility. Traditional campaigns will surely come, and user made ones are always better than the truncated not very historic ones that were released with original IL-2
How long did it take for a new (mod). map to be created for IL-2? wasn't it the Malta map? prior even to Beta release a new MOD/3rd party created theatre map is out with another on the way
How Devs are "restricting" offline content in an unreleased game escapes me..the ME is not ready yet :o...its a bit like complaining that there are no missions/campaigns available for the as yet unreleased DCS Normandy map..
Perhaps all is needed is a bit more patience before getting out the knives 8)
Cheers Dakpilot
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Word!
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Dynamic Missions
Have a look at this program for RoF/BoS
http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=347&t=44102
watch some of the vids and imagine historic SP or Co-op campaign created using this tech
Cheers Dakpilot
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you guys should understand, all i really have to go on is what is posted here in these threads.
so anything i say is already limited to this - my hands are full enough here, and i don't have the spare time to go and read up on other forums what's actually happening.
so if i read things like the devs have said that offliners are not their target demographic, then those comments are what i'm responding to.
which is why i ask those starting threads here to give us facts and details, and not personal opinions.
it just drags the whole misinformation thing out further and further.
please, let's hear the facts here, and not personal feelings. no good will ever come of that.
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Suffice to say, if the developers exlicitly states that players who want an offline playing experience is not their target demographic they are missing out on many potential customers. That is a fact.
Of course it can be modded, but that's not the point. One should not have to resort to mods to have an acceptable offline experience.
EDIT: "Titanfall" comes to mind, the FPS with soldiers and big mech-robots that was released earlier this year. It was to have a big single player campaign on launch together with a nice multiplayer experience but ultimately the singleplayer-part was cancelled because the devs frankly said it was a waste of time and resources even though they had a 65-person crew working full time on the game, they instead went with story-driven multuiplayer in arena matches with 6 vs 6 players. That pissed off a lot of people.
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There is a lot of disinformation here. Why encourage 'chinese whispers' when all people have to do if they wish to know stuff is to go to the source? So I encourage anyone who wishes to know facts to go to the source and converse directly with people who are involved with the sim as it is being developed. Listening to hearsay and misinformation is simply a waste of your time.
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As a further sign of the mod-ability of this sim, Stenka over at =69.GIAP= is creating BoSWar which will enable persistent tracking of resources and elements throughout the air war, much as SEOW does for HSFX. This is still in beta clearly as the product is in EA but they ran something very similar for RoF and it was very successful.
BoS will be very adaptable in many ways and there will be tons of content created by skilled artisans. For those that wish to do so, hack away, but the fact of the matter is that here is something in development that takes the IL2 franchise onto the next phase. Things should not be as they were for their own sake, things should be as the developer/community synergy directs.
I am so glad that these devs know their business and are sticking to their guns. If only Oleg et al had been half as competent with regard to project management then CloD would have attained it's potential instead of crashing and burning.
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Has the team changed their position they had earlier on the modded planes?
Jason stated last year or so that third party planes (that is, modded planes) probably won't be avalible in BoS. I sure do hope they have changed their mind.
If modded planes are a no-go for this sim i think it would make for a somewhat dull mod scene.
Sure, one could possibly alter the skins and perhaps some characteristics of the planes but if one wants to make a single-player mission or campaign featuring Romanian or Hungarian planes in the Stalingrad campaign i guess one is out of luck, if they won't all be flying reskinned Luftwaffe-planes of course.
EDIT: here's a link with the statement from Jason on the planes and a "don't know" on custom maps: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/7-questions-developers/#entry347
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which is why i ask those starting threads here to give us facts and details, and not personal opinions.
I agree, and now that I can post outside links I'll try to post direct quotes from Loft only, along with a link to them. I've found that while other members of 777/1C try to temper what Loft says, he is the final word on all things, and it seems his posts are always the most accurate. Here is his post regarding the availability of the FMB after release:
=FB=LOFT, on 07 May 2014 - 15:41, said:
BraveSirRobin, on 07 May 2014 - 10:32, said:
Can you estimate how long before we will get access to the mission builder?
Not soon. We don`t have anyone on station named "editor interface and usability". For development we use ROF editor as-is. But believe me this is not what you and community want. This system tooooooooo complex to have fun. And only if we can rise money from customers after release, we can spend it to hire someone talented to do this job.
For guys we know from ROF we can provide editor as-is but not for sharing. And they can start mission creating at the middle of summer.
http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/6251-discussion-questions-developers/page-3?hl= customers (http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/6251-discussion-questions-developers/page-3?hl= customers) Post #102
Just today Jason said:
"We've said many times that we will release our ME at a later date sometime after launch to the general public.
Jason"
http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/10792-developer-diary-part-79/page-8 (http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/10792-developer-diary-part-79/page-8) Post #287
but Jason has also said they would finish the b-Career in RoF and it still remains in beta after several years and he has moved on to BoS. Maybe someday it will be finished, but based on past history "a later date sometime" can mean anything. Loft's statement is probably more accurate regarding the FMB/ME. His position is that the RoF mission editor is too complex to have fun. It is statements like the above that make me think the FMB/ME will not be following right on the heels of the initial release of BoS (like within a month or two). As Loft says, they don't even have the funds to upgrade it and apparently he won't release it to the general public "as is" as he considers the RoF mission editor too difficult for BoS customers. If someone has better more recent information on the FMB/ME directly from Loft by all means please post it with a link. I would love to be wrong about this.
I'll also post other quotes and links where Loft talks about the fact that only 5% of the customers would ever use an FMB/ME. I don't think Loft views an FMB/ME as a core function of BoS but rather a "nice to have" but I'll let you form your own opinion on that based on his words. I think he is wrong about the 5%, but that is speculation on my part. I think if Loft viewed an FMB/ME as critical to the success of BoS (which for me it is) then he would have included it in the initial project budget.
Loft is a straight talker, and the things he says usually happen, although they may not be to my liking as an SP player.
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As a further sign of the mod-ability of this sim...
Good lord man, theses are the same people that run ROF the most anti mod flight Sim in years.
Microsoft CFS, IL2, EAW, FSX, et al were all very modable. RoF? Not so much. What happened when someone in the community actually created a (rightous) 3rd party aircraft? He submitted it, they took it and "refined" it, then made a new sim around it for the bargain early access price of $20!
These people are not pro mod. They never have been and never will be.
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Microsoft CFS, IL2, EAW, FSX, et al were all very modable.
err....not quite true, mate. IL-2 was NEVER moddable. several years down the line the game was eventually 'hacked' in order to be able to use mods.
which also explains why there is still such a big anti-mod group, even though all their fears of the game being messed up came to nought.
surprised you don't remember this....
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Microsoft CFS, IL2, EAW, FSX, et al were all very modable.
err....not quite true, mate. IL-2 was NEVER moddable. several years down the line the game was eventually 'hacked' in order to be able to use mods.
which also explains why there is still such a big anti-mod group, even though all their fears of the game being messed up came to nought.
surprised you don't remember this....
What can I say, it's been a long time.
Even still, how long had RoF been around? And how long was it before il2 started getting modded? No one is doing it to RoF and we see that is not due to lack of desire on the communities part.
Heck there has even been a 3rd party plane made, they took it and sold it.
RoF and crew are doing something different in making the creativity ban stick. Not sure what but they are very good at it.
Jesus not even new 3d, just some fm fixes for christ sake...ah never mind.
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not much to say there, mate - it's just another sign of the capitalistic times we live in, where profit is king, and most definitely not the customer.
they're entitled to do things as they want, but i see it as short-term gains versus long-term, consigned to the recycle bin and forgotten mentality.
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Microsoft CFS, IL2, EAW, FSX, et al were all very modable.
err....not quite true, mate. IL-2 was NEVER moddable. several years down the line the game was eventually 'hacked' in order to be able to use mods.
which also explains why there is still such a big anti-mod group, even though all their fears of the game being messed up came to nought.
surprised you don't remember this....
What can I say, it's been a long time.
Even still, how long had RoF been around? And how long was it before il2 started getting modded? No one is doing it to RoF and we see that is not due to lack of desire on the communities part.
Heck there has even been a 3rd party plane made, they took it and sold it.
RoF and crew are doing something different in making the creativity ban stick. Not sure what but they are very good at it.
Jesus not even new 3d, just some fm fixes for christ sake...ah never mind.
More mis-information, RoF has Mods enabled by devs there are thousands of topics in mod topics in RoF forums and it is fully supported and encouraged, just not NEW aircraft which is rather understandable from a business point. Your take on the release of Ilya Muromets is so far out whack I am lost for words. A new Modder made map and another huge one on the way for BOS even before the release of the game....sure a real ban in mod creativity... Facts, How long did it take to get a new Mod map for IL-2?
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/LdZTEsn4nB8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
player made mod map featured in vid
I am tired of having to "defend" something I have no vested interest in, it makes me seem to be some kind of the worst fanboy...but when I see blinkered negativity spread by heresay and unsupported non-facts I feel I have to say something. Its success will rely on its content and playability so lets just wait and see
Cheers Dakpilot
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Then just stop.
People can go on and on about how great it is, and is for its positives certainly, but moddingv is not one of them.
You can have all the new maps, objects and sounds you want but without new aircraft is rather pointless. I mean sure someone could very will make a Mediterranean or western front map for bos, but having LaGG 3 and pe2 on it kinda sucks.
As to IM, here you are:
http://riseofflight.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=278&t=35966
User created content that has been appropriated and sold back. Sure it's good capitalism, but that in itself kinda sucks too.
So say what you like but BoS will never be the modding paradise that il2 has been, and thus probably won't live as long, or be as healthy in old age.
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Your position starts and finishes with 'modding' as if it were the Golden Fleece of the sim developer's art. I imagine that Oleg et al were pretty pissed when Il2 got illegally hacked into 5 years or so after it's release. That is now long and forgotten but they didn't write the sim with anything more in mind with reference to user made content than skins and campaigns/mission sets. Community made maps, map objects and any other planes were not on the menu.
As so rightly pointed out RoF has a great deal of community made product and the sim is successful. Point to note. The Sigorsky bomber was offered freely by an enthusiast and then 777 Studios in partnership with a Russian Military Heritage Foundation developed the work into what it is. You make it sound like something very different.
RoF has a mode called Mods On and BoS will be very similar. Considering that the sim is still in EA and that there is already a huge and excellent map made by the community as well as new objects for it, new missions being created by people/groups who have been allowed EA to the FMB which WILL be on general release later, and it is very clear that the RoF/BoS devs understand the desire for user made content. That is obvious if you open your eyes. They know it makes good sense. What they don't want is a 'modding paradise' and I don't blame them.
A product needs to be controlled by its creators for sound business reasons. We have never seen a flight sim before being developed in open view like the EA for BoS and they have proved their willingness to move with community concerns within certain constraints. You would probably only be happy if they gave it all away free as DLC.
And your projection as to its longevity will prove to be as misguided as everything else you wrote.
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Modding is what keeps games alive. Half Life 1 was selling lots of copies for almost 10 years because you needed it to play Counter Strike.
Modding also can vastly increase sales of games. Look at Arma 2, they tripled their sales after DayZ was becoming popular because you needed Arma 2 to play DayZ, and Arma 2 is a military simulator with a rather narrow demographic that went mainstream thanks to mods.
Silent Hunter 3 is much more popular than Silent Hunter 5 because 3 is very easily modded, and 5 has a stupid DRM and is quite hard to mod easily.
So one could say that business-wise, you can earn a lot of money by opening your game to mods. Be too closed up and too conservative and your game will die because it's not evolving and the players will move to new games, leaving only a small band of die-hard enthusiasts.
One can have all the new maps, skins, effects and tweaks one want to but with 8 planes in the box BoS will be extraordinarily dull to make new missions for, and severely limited in several ways.
Lets ponder the planes for a moment. You have 2 nations, 8 planes (10 if one gets the "Premium" version of the game) and one specific part of the eastern front.
Modders need to take this into account if they want to make historical missions since only 8 planes will be used, so Romania, Hungary, Italy, Slovakia and Finland is almost out already if one was hoping they would fly some indigenous designs such as the IAR 80, the "Buffalo", the G.50 or the Gladiator. We won't be able to add these planes ourselves, we will have to make do with reskinned 109's, Stukas or Heinkel bombers.
However, i am confident that with focusing on only 8 or 10 planes we can accept perfect characteristics and flying models for these planes if all development time for the planes went in to perfect these 10 instead of making 30 "ok" planes.
Now let's ponder the maps and any possible custom maps and missions.
The single player campaign will focus between November 1942 and February 1943, so we can presume the planes will feature the equipment and parts considered standard or new for that timeframe. That will severely limit any modders wanting to step out of that narrow timeframe.
Want to make a Barbarossa map? Cool! Just remember that every plane in there will be 1942 - 43 specs, save for perhaps the Me109 F4. No I-16s, No I-153s and so on.
Want to make a cool map of "Operation Bagration" in 1944? Awesome! Just remember that all your planes on that map will be at least 2 years old by then.
Missionmakers will have to stick to the 1942 - 1943 timeframe and stick to the eastern front for missions to be believable, plausible and not anachronistic to the point of sillyness.
Western powers? Nope. Not with mods anyway. If we want to fly as RAF we will need to reskin a Yak.1 and pretend that it's a Spitfire until the devs deem us worthy of adding our modded planes, or they decide to make their own Spitfires and sell them to us plane by plane, RoF-style.
I am sure that this game will be a great game for what it is simulating, namely aerial combat on the front of Stalingrad in the winter of 1942 - 43 with 10 planes featuring nice graphics and a great flightmodel, but the novelty and excitement will fade quite rapidly if the content modders are allowed to make is restricted to maps, skins, effects and tweaking.
I will still get the game. But not on release, i will get it on a sale in a year or two, as i did with RoF, when mods and tweaks are aplenty.
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IL2 was not a modding paradise given to us CVMW, it was hacked. You are really misleading here.
If anyone crack ROF and BOS , well good luck, I would not pay for that lawsuit
Ofcourse they protect what is theirs. I don't see anyone criticize DCS for the same type of finance. But the pre assumptions and judgement are more political than anything else.
I respect anyones opinion about a game, and I insist everyone here to do the same.
It is when people are being called idiots for liking a game I get upset.
CVMW I disagree totally the LAGG all the russian planes got excellent game physics and FM. Roll rate might be off. but compared to COD and DCS P-51 I really cannot place your critique other places than highly subjective
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Modding is what keeps games alive. Half Life 1 was selling lots of copies for almost 10 years because you needed it to play Counter Strike.
Modding also can vastly increase sales of games. Look at Arma 2, they tripled their sales after DayZ was becoming popular because you needed Arma 2 to play DayZ, and Arma 2 is a military simulator with a rather narrow demographic that went mainstream thanks to mods.
Silent Hunter 3 is much more popular than Silent Hunter 5 because 3 is very easily modded, and 5 has a stupid DRM and is quite hard to mod easily.
So one could say that business-wise, you can earn a lot of money by opening your game to mods. Be too closed up and too conservative and your game will die because it's not evolving and the players will move to new games, leaving only a small band of die-hard enthusiasts.
One can have all the new maps, skins, effects and tweaks one want to but with 8 planes in the box BoS will be extraordinarily dull to make new missions for, and severely limited in several ways.
Lets ponder the planes for a moment. You have 2 nations, 8 planes (10 if one gets the "Premium" version of the game) and one specific part of the eastern front.
Modders need to take this into account if they want to make historical missions since only 8 planes will be used, so Romania, Hungary, Italy, Slovakia and Finland is almost out already if one was hoping they would fly some indigenous designs such as the IAR 80, the "Buffalo", the G.50 or the Gladiator. We won't be able to add these planes ourselves, we will have to make do with reskinned 109's, Stukas or Heinkel bombers.
However, i am confident that with focusing on only 8 or 10 planes we can accept perfect characteristics and flying models for these planes if all development time for the planes went in to perfect these 10 instead of making 30 "ok" planes.
Now let's ponder the maps and any possible custom maps and missions.
The single player campaign will focus between November 1942 and February 1943, so we can presume the planes will feature the equipment and parts considered standard or new for that timeframe. That will severely limit any modders wanting to step out of that narrow timeframe.
Want to make a Barbarossa map? Cool! Just remember that every plane in there will be 1942 - 43 specs, save for perhaps the Me109 F4. No I-16s, No I-153s and so on.
Want to make a cool map of "Operation Bagration" in 1944? Awesome! Just remember that all your planes on that map will be at least 2 years old by then.
Missionmakers will have to stick to the 1942 - 1943 timeframe and stick to the eastern front for missions to be believable, plausible and not anachronistic to the point of sillyness.
Western powers? Nope. Not with mods anyway. If we want to fly as RAF we will need to reskin a Yak.1 and pretend that it's a Spitfire until the devs deem us worthy of adding our modded planes, or they decide to make their own Spitfires and sell them to us plane by plane, RoF-style.
I am sure that this game will be a great game for what it is simulating, namely aerial combat on the front of Stalingrad in the winter of 1942 - 43 with 10 planes featuring nice graphics and a great flightmodel, but the novelty and excitement will fade quite rapidly if the content modders are allowed to make is restricted to maps, skins, effects and tweaking.
I will still get the game. But not on release, i will get it on a sale in a year or two, as i did with RoF, when mods and tweaks are aplenty.
Quite a bizarre post there. Sounds like you would like a commercial enterprise to be open source so that people can do what they like with it. Il2 BoS does what it says on the tin, no more and no less. We don't want RAF or USAAF planes unless they're lend-lease appropriate to the scenario. When BoS succeeds as I am sure it will there will very likely be expansions, first of the front and then of the theatre and this will happen in a shorter time frame than it took for IL2 to expand.
This sim sure isn't being created for the benefit of the modding community, it's for people who want to fly this scenario, part of the greatest airwarfare scenario ever to take place on this planet. The BoB was a vicarage tea party in comparison.
Stick with 1946 if you want every aircraft under the sun. I prefer a microcosm where flying feels more like reality and the environment bears some relation to the real world in terms of laws of physics. It's detail and not scope that matters in this sim.
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I have a firm belief that applications that are open to certain degrees to the users are more prone to success in the long run than applications closed off, only for the developers to utilize and alter.
Gaming history shows us this. Moddable, accessible engines and platforms have had bigger successes than the closed off ones. This is a fact.
"When BoS succeeds as I am sure it will there will very likely be expansions"
Now you are just drawing big assumptions here, it's IF it succeeds. RoF hasn't got it's career mode out of beta yet and it's been 5 years since release, and given that they removed the DRM on that one 1 year after release because it was hurting sales one could assume it wasn't such a big hit they wanted it to be, and as such the career mode is dragging on for 4 years? That isn't very promising.
So, if the game succeeds we will perhaps get some cool expansions. If it fails we won't even get a complete game?
I have said many times that i think this game will we good at what it wants, but without more content it will probably never grow as big as 1946.
And you said yourself that success will perhaps make expansions come true, but if it's not a success are we stuck with a expansionless, unmoddable game?
EDIT: Fine. I yield. After reading into your replies and reading on the official website and other forums i guess i'll have to accept the fact that this will be a $55 flying sim with 8 planes, a 4 month historical timescope, no modded planes and instead a business model in some aspects similar to RoF where we perhaps may buy planes and equipment off the developers store and that we maybe will get expansion packs for the game in the future if it's a success.
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IL2 was not a modding paradise given to us CVMW, it was hacked. You are really misleading here.
If anyone crack ROF and BOS , well good luck, I would not pay for that lawsuit
Ofcourse they protect what is theirs. I don't see anyone criticize DCS for the same type of finance. But the pre assumptions and judgement are more political than anything else.
I respect anyones opinion about a game, and I insist everyone here to do the same.
It is when people are being called idiots for liking a game I get upset.
CVMW I disagree totally the LAGG all the russian planes got excellent game physics and FM. Roll rate might be off. but compared to COD and DCS P-51 I really cannot place your critique other places than highly subjective
That is funny in case you suggest the DCS P-51D is inferior :-\. Never flew DCS planes, only that FC crap. But the DCS P-51D is said (by pilots who fly P-51Ds on displays!) to be spot on. Same with some forum pilots here.
Not to suggest buying DCS. Each to his own! :) IMO it is not only the planes and FMs but also the environment and show me any sim that offers more than IL-2 and modded maps. :P
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I have a firm belief that applications that are open to certain degrees to the users are more prone to success in the long run than applications closed off, only for the developers to utilize and alter.
Gaming history shows us this. Moddable, accessible engines and platforms have had bigger successes than the closed off ones. This is a fact.
"When BoS succeeds as I am sure it will there will very likely be expansions"
Now you are just drawing big assumptions here, it's IF it succeeds. RoF hasn't got it's career mode out of beta yet and it's been 5 years since release, and given that they removed the DRM on that one 1 year after release because it was hurting sales one could assume it wasn't such a big hit they wanted it to be, and as such the career mode is dragging on for 4 years? That isn't very promising.
So, if the game succeeds we will perhaps get some cool expansions. If it fails we won't even get a complete game?
I have said many times that i think this game will we good at what it wants, but without more content it will probably never grow as big as 1946.
And you said yourself that success will perhaps make expansions come true, but if it's not a success are we stuck with a expansionless, unmoddable game?
Then by your firm belief, BoS is more prone to success in the long run as it is open to a certain degree and is not a closed application. There are whole groups of people who are already utilizing the FMB and creating maps and altering things.
If the sim fails as a commercial enterprise then what we have is a flight sim that is great to fly, a complete flight sim as advertised, ie the Battle of Stalingrad.
This sim doesn't want nor pretend to be like 1946, even the stock version. Every other version is a hacked copy, some of which I like personally. TFM and HSFX in particular.
If it's not a success then the market has spoken. Some will continue to fly it much as with CloD. Another sim that I very much like and fly regularly.
From my view there is no need to modify what works well. There are very good reasons why people wanted to modify IL2 Original. But if in 5 years time someone modifies BoS to work with DirectX 11 for example and makes it shine graphically like nothing else then I am sure I would be interested. Mind you, they would end up in court and so might I if I used it.
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Well, then it has the potential for success with some people that are happy with a 4 month time window and a handful of planes flying all kinds of missions, but you seem to fail to realize that no matter how many maps or alterations you make you are still constrained with 8 planes between late-42 and mid-43 in the stock version. In reality, this mean that we can make a million maps and as many alterations as we humanly can but we are still limited to Germany and the USSR with 8 planes flying over the Eastern front between November 1942 and February 1943. One can't step outside those boundaries with new planes or the ability to mod the existing planes, which the dev's have said we can't do.
You do have to realize that it will constraint modding. What if you want to make a Barbarossa scenario? You can't if you dont want to make it very silly and anachronistic with planes from 1942 and 43 flying a Barbarossa mission set in 1941. What about the Battle of Kursk? Operation Bagration? Siege of Leningrad? Battle of the Crimea? Missions set in 1944, 1945 with only planes from 1942 - early 43? BoS is fine if i am happy with those constraints, but i am not. I want barbarossa, Crimea and the battle for berlin, and thus BoS will not be the ultimate game for me.
These are modding limits. Given the unmoddable set of planes, unability to add new ones we can't fly missions outside of the fixed timeframe of late '42 to mid '43 and that will hamper it's success with us who are interested in more than just 8 planes from 2 countries flying during 4 months of the Stalingrad campaign.
So, in a sense BoS has the potential for great success as well as it has the potential for horrible failure. For me, it all depends on how much the game will be supported in the future and if we will get new content to use. Believe me, very few people are going to stick with this game for 10 years if there won't be more than a handful of planes and such a narrow scope as it has now. I, for one, likes variation and i would surely have fun with BoS for a while, but sooner or later i will get fed up with 8 planes and the lack of variation and move on. Part of what makes 1946 stand the test of time the way it does is the fact that thanks to mods we can fly everything from WW1 era Fokkers and Nieuports battling over the western front with flimsy machine guns in 1916 to MiG 17's and Thunderjets duking it out with heat seeking missiles over Korea in 1956.
The best part of it? I can choose without limits whatever i want. 1946 is like a big candyshop where i can choose whatever i want from hundreds of boxes and enjoy it.
With BoS i can choose but only within with very sharp limits and timeframes. It's like being in the same huge candyshop but restricted to one or 2 boxes among hundreds.
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Your analogy to a candyshop is not appropriate unless you plan on walking out without paying for your sweets. Virtually none of the mods for IL2 Original involve a transaction. The original devs stopped making money out of it a long time ago as people either pick it up for peanuts or pirate it. That is no recipe for success.
If BoS proves to be fruitful then the Devs have already said they will expand both the plane-set and the front/theatre. Such expansion may run alongside or not, we don't know, but it won't be BoS it will be Battle of Somewhere Else. It would be a nonsense to fly a foreign plane-set in a foreign theatre under the name of BoS. So I would be happy forever more to fly BoS when I wanted to fly Operation Uranus campaigns and when I fancy something else I will fly it. Success breeds success, it is contagious and if there is demand it will be met I am confident.
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IL2 was not a modding paradise given to us CVMW, it was hacked. You are really misleading here.
If anyone crack ROF and BOS , well good luck, I would not pay for that lawsuit
Ofcourse they protect what is theirs. I don't see anyone criticize DCS for the same type of finance. But the pre assumptions and judgement are more political than anything else.
I respect anyones opinion about a game, and I insist everyone here to do the same.
It is when people are being called idiots for liking a game I get upset.
CVMW I disagree totally the LAGG all the russian planes got excellent game physics and FM. Roll rate might be off. but compared to COD and DCS P-51 I really cannot place your critique other places than highly subjective
That is funny in case you suggest the DCS P-51D is inferior :-\. Never flew DCS planes, only that FC crap. But the DCS P-51D is said (by pilots who fly P-51Ds on displays!) to be spot on. Same with some forum pilots here.
Not to suggest buying DCS. Each to his own! :) IMO it is not only the planes and FMs but also the environment and show me any sim that offers more than IL-2 and modded maps. :P
I am not saying DCS P-51 is inferior, far from it, but the cool guys has approved it an then the rest of the sim fanboys follow their lead. Only DCS can walk free from any criticism.
But frankly, when I manage to take off in it, fly it and land it. Don´t give me the crap it is realistic. It is a game as anyone else, and it is the users subjective opinion that judge it.
I have discussed this with a huge amount of people and their answer are always the same, " I got a friend that is a pilot"
Well game physics and feel of flight , you only need to sit in a plane.
Personally I have had control over a cessna plane multiple times, and even flown a Robinson chopper for a minute or two. I do not regard myself any more capable of inter sim judgement.
BOS is what it is, and I like it so far. I think it got a huge potential. And for those only flew IL 2 it is a massive improvement in all its narrow theatre.
I would not delete my IL 2 install for any of the alternatives we got.
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I can dig up the thread at DCS: The P-51 was tested by the real horsemen and found to be highly realistic. ;)
A forum friend here is a pilot and also says it is magnificent.
I have not flown it nor any other real plane.
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Both the DCS P-51 and the A2A P-51 get a similar thumbs up from people who have actually flown the warbird in question. A2A have a Korea War era veteran on their development and testing staff who says it's the dog's proverbials. These two sims seem to have gotten close to some sense of cockpit reality.
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I find it very realistic, but if it really is. I can take a real one and fly it.
I have never seen a sim , managing to simulate a proper ground loop. DCS got a unbeatable pit. but the fm is for me not that different from cod and bos.
Because it is a simulation of a real world not the real thing.
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That said, I will be a regular flyer of DCS the moment they got objects maps and effects matching the planes. I probably fly it exclusive if they give me a B-17 or 24 Think what DCS would have made of a heavy :DROOL:
Here is the newest video from HH Pauk
see reply #67
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Nice video. More stuff in that vein will create a few customers.
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Well it is a all over experience flying in bos, you probably get fooled to believe it is better than it is while flying in it. The effects and light/atmosphere bring much "realism" or maybe our film romantic opinion of realism.
It bring a lot of joy, but I cannot spend too much time flying online, somehow I get full of it after 45 minutes
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imho the new Stalingad map by Cyberolas looks much better/more realistic then the BoS map + it has an even better looking summer version...
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As for MAPS modded IL-2 rules, unrestricted. As for game engine, it is dated, no grass, no real shadows etc. ;)
To be fair, again subjective, IMHO the contenders for kickass sims of varying realism level atm are:
-DCS, terrain still sucks.
-BOS, again rather a survey, which is fully ok since immersion and terrain also contribute to realism if FMs are ok.
-Falcon BMS (jet age, modern) with soon coming amazing new cockpits/planes and other than F-16 and hopefully a terrain upgrade with BMS 4.33. All nice but dated terrain.
Rest...yawn, not my cup of tea. :) COD maybe except for the popup old issue which I can only tolerate in IL-.2. ;)
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imho the new Stalingad map by Cyberolas looks much better/more realistic then the BoS map + it has an even better looking summer version...
I agree, mapwise IL2 is better than all these games
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wow.
haven't touched the thing since they added pure evil to BoS... the one-ninety. :P
Glad to see action is being taken and progress is being made.
I am sorry that this thread is not informing the populous, as malone said.
what i see makes me frown, like "Hmm... what the heck is this about?!!"
but come on, i spent hundreds of hours in a modded FMB, playing with the toys at hand, making movie-like missions, creating fleets and online dogfights that were flown for months, recreating pacific assaults and carrier groups + BBs pounding each other.
i am not informed yet, have not taken the time to - but a FMB that is useable without a programming degree, a FMB that has a shatload of content and objects, and waypoints and weather settings and options n stuff is Key.
...key to both onliner and offliner community.
We are not only triggerhappy armchair Pilot-users, but also makers. makers of skins and makers of scenarios. makers of online races and makers of squad matches. We read the books and the memories contained - and recreate the history to relax, to understand, to appreciate our fragile peace.
Let's see. maybe i should put some time into this on the weekend.
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Well making good campaigns without scripting is not doable. Online that is. So you nee d some know how anyways.
As I understand it they aim for a reasonablemission editor at some point after the final release. How ever, ROF mission editor is far from useless
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some scripting, use of barely readable language, i did expect that. complex scenarios need complex tools and complex minds to translate that to game code.
I guess from a global code perspective, 1946 missions are a joke; they describe what map, what weather, what objects, what routes.
the rest is done by AI who tries to execute that recipe.
which brings me to the point of recognizing that the future is "a bit" more complex. But then again, online campaigns is not where you start. You start at putting your plane somewhere, and a target somewhere.
and then another, and another. and as long as a good graphics interface is available and i do not stare at a text console...
should be doable, learnable.
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Well to tell you the truth, I know nothing about IL2 online mission making. But in CLOD and BOS scripting make online campaigns very interesting. Now if that sim had a JU 52 I would fly only JU 52 and do transport missions. Because in BOS you need to supply airbases, or can if you want to. We need to use 111´s for it now, witch is not far off, since there was a transport version of that plane.
In CLOD the scripting more goes for how to win a goal witch is nice. Drop 8000 kilo bomb and you disable a airbase, take out 4 of them you win the map.
So if there is not a program witch make you play with the mouse for obtain these kind of objectives, scripting is nessersery
I made a test campaign in clod where I just copied a script, All I had to do was change values and the script worked. So it is not that hard if you got hand on a template
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Oh yea, and the condor was used too, and the Greiff.
But to stay honest: what is Stalingrad without the German logistics aspect.
That's not even a question. its like D-Day without the Douglas, like market garden without Gotha's.
Logistics were one of the main pillars of that situation.
A lot of content is missing, but me, i am hoping for the future. a Ju, a Storch an eighty-eight... just tons of planes and ground objects that are not in... yet. (?)
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Some official info about the SP campaign, looks to me that some people are not too happy about it but its good news here:
777 Studios - Jason
Loft has built what he promised he would. He never said he would build the same system as ROF or 1946 or anything else. It's all there in the Dev Blogs.
I always knew some in the hardcore community wouldn't like this system, but luckily for you I am still here and will work with talented individuals in the community utilizing the tools like the ME and give as much support as I can so eventually there can be a Campaign that is a more like the other campaign systems you like. With the ME and a little programming talent an amazing dynamic Campaign system can be built along the lines of what Pat Wilson built for ROF over the past 3 years. It's really good and is a testament of what can be achieved with our technology.
The guys who want a certain type of deep role-playing campaign are not the average customer any more in this genre unfortunately. I'm one of the old school types myself too, but its not easy making a popular flying game these days with simply the older game-play designs.
What you will enjoy is a sim/game that WORKS with minimal bugs that prevent you from flying and fighting. That has always been the first priority. The role-playing and historical detail you may want will have to come later on, just as much of it has come from the community with all the other popular simulations ever made. This is actually where 90% of my fun has come from as a sim pilot the last 15 years.
It will all sort itself out in time.
Jason
from:
Forums » Air Combat & Civil Aviation » IL-2: Battle of Stalingrad » Dev Update 79
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4012097/Re:_Dev_Update_79#Post4012097
Pat will make his code available to anyone who has the skills to use it. It's written in Java.