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[Tony4mori]

hello guys i'm building a campaign set in the 50s. I'm not sure whether to use the mig-15 or mig-17. I think the mig-17 a plane is too powerful for the Sabre. Know if there were clashes between mig-17 and the F-86 sabre?

[superbee426ci]

Sabres and MIG-17s mixed it up in both the Taiwan Strait Crisis and the Indo-Pakistani Wars.  The USA even used a F-86H as a stand in for the MIG-17 during Project Feather Duster to test tactics to help F-4s and F-105s fight the MIG-17.  So historically they did face off.  Personally I think a late model Sabre or the Avon powered ADEN armed CAC Sabre should be up to the task.

[Mr.Craig]

As far as I'm aware, the Sabre Jet and MiG-17 did not fly against one another during either the September 1965, or the December 1971 Indo-Pakistan Wars. The Indian Air Force actively used the Hunter, Gnat, Dassault Mystere IVa, DH Vampire (very briefly) and the Dassault Ouragan (as far as fighters are concerned) in the 1965 War. India did have MiG-21F-13s on hand, but they saw very limited action in the 1965 war.

In the 1971 War, the Indian Air Force actively used the MiG-21, Su-7 Fitter, Hunter, Gnat, and the HF-24 Marut (designed by Prof Kurt Tank). Again I'm talking about fighter types. The MiG-21s did see considerable action in 1971, and shot down at least four Pakistani F-104As (along with one Sabre and two MiG-19s).   

I've been reading about the 1965 and 1971 Indo-Pak Wars for over 20 years and the Indian Air Force never acquired the MiG-17, or ever used it in combat.

There IS another instance of F-86s verses the MiG-17, and that was Korea. According to the book "F-86 Sabre in action" (page 42 paragraph 1) there are photos of F-86Fs of the 16th FIS on an alert strip at Suwon during the winter of 1953. It further states,

"Although the Korean War was over, there was still contact and combat between USAF Sabres and North Korean MiG-15s and MiG-17s through 1955".

This is a good subject that you brought up Tony4mori 



   

 

[adambegg]

During the conflict between China and Taiwan, the Taiwanese F-86s were considered outclassed by the Chinese MiG-17s, which is why they were fitted with sidewinder missiles.  It was a good plan right up until a sidewinder lodged itself in a MiG without detonating, allowing the pilot to bring it home and for the Russians to disassemble and reverse-engineer it.

[Tony4mori]

thanks guys just as i imagined . I think the MIG-17 a plane is too powerful for the Sabre. I will use the MIG-15.

[SAS~Anto]

Well it depends. Here is my 'rough' comparison:

F-86E  ~ MiG-15
F-86F ~ MiG-15bis
F-86F-40 ~ MiG-17 (non-afterburning models)
F-86H/CAC Sabre/Canadair Mk6 ~ MiG-17F
F-86K ~ MiG-17PF

The later model and foreign production Sabres could definitely take a MiG-17F on. Where the issue is many nations were still equipped with the 'classic' Sabre (mostly F-86E or Fs or derivatives) which were lacking in power to catch the afterburning models.

You do also have to remember that the early MiG-17s were non-afterburning and only marginally quicker than the MiG-15bis (they shared the same engine). There was also the MiG-17A, but this just gained a more reliable (not powerful) VK-1A engine

So as the other have outlined, the Sabre isn't inferior to the MiG-17 - it all depends on what variants you are talking about.

[Heretic]

Well, late F-86s vs. MiG-17s could work in a "Fulda Gap" scenario. But then you'd have other NATO planes evening the odds...

[SAS~Tom2]

+1 on Anto. I think Avon/Canadair and "H" Sabres would be up to the task except lack of AB.
Sabre Hs even outflew F-100s in below super sonic mock fights aka corner speed fights. Pilots loved the F-86Hs.
I think the next thing to come close to beat in maneuvering an F-86 on the US inventory must have been the A-4 to F-5A league and F-11 Tigers. btw the F-11F-1F Super Tiger would have eaten even the F-104.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F11F-1F_Super_Tiger

Carry on

[Mr.Craig]

btw the F-11F-1F Super Tiger would have eaten even the F-104.

It's too bad that the Grumman Tiger had such a short career with the USN, and that it didn't even get to equip any foreign air forces. What a beautiful airplane the F11F was. Did you read about how the Tiger was involved in that amazing mid-air incident when on Sep 21, 1956 Grumman test pilot Tom Attridge actually ran into his own 20MM shells?

http://aviationtrivia.blogspot.com/2011/09/fighter-that-shot-itself-down.html

[BravoFxTrt]

Cool story Kyan.

[123_spider]

~S~

Interesting info, many thanks.

When I was with the 51stFG on-line we used to fly the F-86K against the MiG-17PF ... you had to have your wits about you when going 4 -v- 4 (both types missile armed).

The standard tactic of the MiG was to go into `orbit` when under serious threat, and the only type we found that could get anywhere near it was the F-86K and the Avon/CAC, and even they would `wallow` when reaching max alt.

All we need now is a Taiwan map and we have about all possible scenarios covered !

~S~

[Tony4mori]

guys sorry if i have not described the model of Sabre. I was referring to the models of the HSFX package, then

F-86A5           
F-86F25E         
F-86F25L

I think these 3 models are too underpowered for the MIG-17. I was also thinking of the F-86K Sabre dog, but the only way to have is download JETWAR. and i would like to build this campaign only with HSFX. so i guess i will use the MIG-15