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Author Topic: Thorneycroft Amazon WF/AC6/1/Coles Mk VII, series 2.  (Read 37781 times)

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Piotrek1

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Re: Thorneycroft Amazon WF/AC6/1/Coles Mk VII, series 2.
« Reply #72 on: February 29, 2020, 04:36:24 AM »

Hello Pete, The thought of adding a trailer came up spontaneously :), and I have no idea if such a combination has ever been used, although it probably doesn't look bad :P, I'm glad you're still improving your model 8), so I have a question : would it be possible to put e.g a plane wing on the crane rope in the future? it is doable?

Best regards,
Piotrek
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Mission_bug

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Re: Thorneycroft Amazon WF/AC6/1/Coles Mk VII, series 2.
« Reply #73 on: February 29, 2020, 06:23:52 AM »


Thanks for yet another GREAT add-on, Pete!


Glad you like it so far Peter, not quite finished but the download shows where I am going with it. ;D


I have a question : would it be possible to put e.g a plane wing on the crane rope in the future? it is doable?

I wrote something a few posts back about intentions Piotrek, the plan is to add slings and loads, however, at the moment not sure exactly what although I want to make the Queen Mary trailer and cab so wings and things will be a necessity then I think. ;)


Take care.

Wishing you all the very best, Pete. ;D
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Piotrek1

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Re: Thorneycroft Amazon WF/AC6/1/Coles Mk VII, series 2.
« Reply #74 on: February 29, 2020, 06:51:56 AM »

Thank you for your response 8).
Best regards,
Piotrek
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jpten

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Re: Thorneycroft Amazon WF/AC6/1/Coles Mk VII, series 2.
« Reply #75 on: February 29, 2020, 10:25:28 AM »

"...I will also have to make some different sling varieties to replicate varying loads, what exactly they will look like is as yet unknown.... I can look at the situations it would have been deployed in and what loads it might have carried."

 The first thing that i thought of was from when i was working on the Battle of Britain FMB mission making templates (BAT Pack: Operation Sea-lion) and I learned about the various "Dumps" that the RAF created during the Battle of Britain.   Various 'Messerschmitt dumps' 'Heinkel dumps'...etc were made where crashed German planes were taken to be examined by technicians for secrets and modifications.  I imagine vehicles such as this was used so sling loads of crashed He-111/Me-109/Ju-88...etc parts would be appropriate loads for some scenarios.
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David Prosser

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Re: Thorneycroft Amazon WF/AC6/1/Coles Mk VII, series 2.
« Reply #76 on: February 29, 2020, 12:48:46 PM »

Sounds like a plan. Maybe two, or three versions could be made. One with a Bf-109 wing, and one each with a Spitfire, and Ju-88 wing for instance?

Mission_bug

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Re: Thorneycroft Amazon WF/AC6/1/Coles Mk VII, series 2.
« Reply #77 on: February 29, 2020, 12:56:25 PM »

The beauty of having those class files from Andrew to use is that it gives the opportunity to take various components from existing aircraft such as wings and fuselages without having to make them especially and add them to the hier of the crane and its slings so quite detailed loads could be made. ;)

Right now the build is the important focus for me, you guys can experiment while I build. :D


Wishing you all the very best, Pete. ;D
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Mission_bug

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Re: Thorneycroft Amazon WF/AC6/1/Coles Mk VII, series 2.
« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2020, 11:49:29 AM »

Hello again guys, a little progress report. ;)

Trying to figure out just how the crane itself works has been frustrating, one version seems to use a
bar of some sort to lift and lower the boom, others use what I assume to be steel cables.

Finding photographs of just what those cables attach to and how is proving awkward as most images
of truck or crane show it from low angles, nothing much from above so you can see into the crane cab
and the area around it.

This rough diagram is how I think things work, there appears to be a set of cables at the rear of the
boom that attach to cable drums on the floor of the crane equipment compartment that raise and lower
the actual boom, anther cable winch of sorts is at the side of the main winch drum and that works a cable
that moves up to the cable pivot, over a wheel there and forward to another wheel that I think keeps it
tight before it goes over the wheel at the end to attach to the hook assembly.

The hook assembly has another wheel as part of it and I think one end of the cable is fixed in position on
the boom with the cable then running through the wheel all the way back to the cab end, by moving the
cable I think the wheel for the hook just rolls along the cable thus raising and lowering it, I might be wrong
so if any of you know for sure please put a reply here to see how much of my speculating is actually any
good or not as the case might be. :D




Anyway, on to building what I can actually see in my images, the rear three wheels at the back of the
boom with one at the boom pivot and then on along the boom:



A rough estimation of the cable drums on the floor of the crane cab:



Many of the wheels look to be a casting with holes in them and I tried various ways to replicate this
using some shaped blocks to Boolean cut out the holes:



First try left a lot of oddly cut holes probably due to the complex shape of the wheel so I cut it in two
and tried again:



I gave up on that and started again in a different way, Blue wheel as just a ring including the shaping:



Adding the separate parts to build up the look:



This box is half way along the boom and would appear to tension the cable as it runs along the length
of the boom to the end, the wheel is attached to that on a bracket and to the boom with another:



Still not happy with the way the wheel holes looked I made a shape that used a curve at the end, the
ends will be hidden inside the other parts:



Coming together now with the spindle and parts of the bracket:



Here it all is, some parts will be replicated for the other side and a few other bits and pieces added:




The wheel shape is as near as my ability allows to what I see in photographs and will be cloned once
mapped to make a few of varying sizes for the other wheels, the rear ones though will be as you saw in
the early image as what appears to be three solid wheels, all have groves running through them for the
cables whatever design.


I will have to place cables as near to where they should be, however, without actual images to show me
exactly where you will have to accept a little artistic licence on those. :o


Take care.


Wishing you all the very best, Pete. ;D

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Shessi

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Re: Thorneycroft Amazon WF/AC6/1/Coles Mk VII, series 2.
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2020, 08:51:45 AM »

Pete,
Thanks for the UD. 

Those wheels are fine, no one is going to/can't zoom in that close to inspect your work, and sod-em if they think anything but great work! ha!

I had a trawl about to see if I could help..here are some links that give a better idea of the cable layout (if you've not seen them already)...

https://yorkshireairmuseum.org/exhibits/support-vehicles/aec-amazon-coles-crane/

http://www.grubbyfingersshop.com/walkaround_galleries/Thornycroft%20Amazon%20RAF%20Recovery%20Crane%20UAS%202017/content/Thornycroft%20Amazon%20RAF%20Recovery%20Crane%20UAS%202017%2013%20Graeme%20Molineux_large.html

https://www.flickr.com/photos/homer----simpson/3519693016

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tonyonthemoon/8365551202/in/photostream/

As you understand the one large wheel at the rear of the boom carrys the cables just for the raising/lowering of the boom (cyan/red writing) .  The raising/lowering of the hook is done by the smaller wheel at the boom pivot point (green writing) .  The front winding drum inside the base unit operates the hook and the rear cable drum does the boom.  The operator can work them together to achieve how high the hook is, through hydraulic worked drum clutches operated by the handles in the operators position.

You can raise the hook by either allowing the hook drum to pull up the hook, whilst the boom stays neutral and unaffected or can be raised at the same time so you get the double effect of boom and hook (same on lowering).  Or again you can raise just the boom and not the hook.

The cable for the hook goes from the cable drum to the idler wheel at the boom mid point, over the top of this idler wheel, then to and around the wheel at the hook end, and as you suggest is then fixed to a pivot point near the front of the boom (dk blue writing). This type of looped pulley system allows good control and more lifting stress is taken up by a longer length of cable around the front pivot wheel AND the hook wheel rather than a single point.  (Like a person using a block and tackle to raise something very heavy that they couldn't pick up directly themselves.)

I think the main lift is done by the boom, and light weight lifts or fine height adjustment is done with the hook. 

It's a shame my step-father's not about I could have asked him!  Many years ago I remember seeing a couple of pics of him and his team recovering a crashed Meteor in Germany, but unfortunately I've no idea where they are now.

Cheers

Shessi
Shessi
 
 

 
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Mission_bug

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Re: Thorneycroft Amazon WF/AC6/1/Coles Mk VII, series 2.
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2020, 11:36:22 AM »

Hello Shessi, thank you very much for the links, really appreciated. 8)

Most of the information I already have it seems, the link to the Belfast project is what has provided most of the best information since the start of the project so I had put that link in the first page right at the start of the project just in case any model builders out there would benefit from it, also anyone following this build can see how I came to some conclusions as the build progressed.

Sad your step father is not around, I am sure he would have been a great source of anecdotes and practical help in describing things such as what we are looking at now, we will get there eventually, by hook or crook as they say.

Once the various guide wheels are mapped and I start to build the cables themselves it might be easier for me to focus fully on that area and find answers that elude me right now by tracing the route as I look to the various photographs, here is hoping. :D

What we need is a driver manual with plenty of pictures and descriptions.


There is a nice shinny model out there, another 3d fan, I have competition:





Anyway, good to know you are still following the build, thanks again for the help.

Take care.


Wishing you all the very best, Pete. ;D
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stanislao

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Re: Thorneycroft Amazon WF/AC6/1/Coles Mk VII, series 2.
« Reply #81 on: March 07, 2020, 04:17:16 AM »


 :o Incredible! Spectacular ... I can't decide if the most amazing work of art is the model itself or the tutorial of execution!
My stunned congratulations!


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Shessi

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Re: Thorneycroft Amazon WF/AC6/1/Coles Mk VII, series 2.
« Reply #82 on: March 07, 2020, 05:25:41 AM »

Hi Pete,
I'll have a look around for anything Thorneycroft.

These are what you really want...

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1500087301

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1500087283

Why don't you contact the Yorkshire Air Museum about their Thorneycroft, they proably have the info and books...https://yorkshireairmuseum.org/contact/


And regarding that new 3D model.  I saw it and after studying it, he has got the cable routing and operation completely wrong!  So it's not as good as it at first looks...(better than I could do though! ha)

Shessi
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Mission_bug

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Re: Thorneycroft Amazon WF/AC6/1/Coles Mk VII, series 2.
« Reply #83 on: March 07, 2020, 07:35:11 AM »


 :o Incredible! Spectacular ... I can't decide if the most amazing work of art is the model itself or the tutorial of execution!
My stunned congratulations!




Is that my tutorial and model or the YouTube one stanislao?  :D


These are what you really want...

I found those links some time ago Shessi and I am surprised they do not make a copy available for purchase, at least I cannot see anything!

Maybe the only way to see their records is to actually ask for a appointment and make copies of the information you require from the stored images they keep, sadly Health and finance keeps me at home at the moment so I cannot go there or the Yorkshire Air Museum, places I have visited in the past, if only I had known then I would one day build this particular vehicle. ;)

What is surprising is I have not had any hits on Ebay or similar places for any kind of manual for truck or crane for sale, many copies of Pilot notes can be seen but nothing of help to me. :o

I have never driven a truck, however, I was licensed for many types of fork lift vehicle through my work over the years and they would each have a individual manual available for the operator and you would think one also for those who maintain them, yet for all the private examples of the Thorneycroft and Coles no manual to be found anywhere except those at the IWM you linked. ::(


And regarding that new 3D model.  I saw it and after studying it, he has got the cable routing and operation completely wrong!  So it's not as good as it at first looks...(better than I could do though! ha)

The issue for me is that I have not been able to see a vehicle from above so it is hard to say how accurate that model is in respect to the cables, my own thoughts are that the cable would be free to move back and forth along the cable drum so having a cover with those small apertures seems unlikely, I would think the various cable drums would be exposed using the material they were made from and grease to protect the part with the motors housed under cover either side within the shell of the crane. :-|

The video and model though are certainly impressive, better than I can do also.  :(


Thank you very much again for your continued help Shessi, really appreciated. 8)


Take care.


Wishing you all the very best, Pete. ;D
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