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Author Topic: Strange water issue totally unrelated to BAT  (Read 4554 times)

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Captain Dawson

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Re: Strange water issue TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO BAT
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2017, 10:11:22 AM »

Oh, INLAND WATER, not coastal, been a problem for some time.

http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,37315.0.html
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,48625.0.html
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,38363.0.html

  It is all done by the colors (in greyscale) in the map files.
Land height is set on map_c, Water level is set on map_h.  Black is 0 meters, white is 4032 metres.

Thank you for the links. This is apparently for map making, though.

And I suddenly realized this is not just on the Spain maps. Its on all of them. DOF, TGA, WAW, and JTW. I can't just go and set the procedural altitude for every river in all the maps, I don't know how lol! The water is not bound to the terrain height, and it persists throughout the whole game. Perhaps a conflicting mod or something else?... Something in the config or NVidea settings?... This is all "stock" BAT by the way. Phooey, I dunno how to fix this!

As I said, I never had this problem until BAT, so I don't see how this could be an original map issue, especially if no one else has seen this before. Nothing even enabled in JSGME, installed everything correctly AFAIK... If there is no known solution, should I just start over from scratch and re-install?  :-|
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"It's totally foolproof, until you mess something up." -Captain Dawson My OP rig: CybertronPC Palladium custom desktop computer, GPU: NVidia GeForce GTX 1060 6GB GDDR5, CPU: Intel Core i5-6600K 3.5 GHz 6M Cache Skylake Quad-Core, RAM: 8.00 GB, Motherboard: Intel H110 Chipset, SSD: 240GB, HDD: 1TB, OS: Windows 10

Captain Dawson

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Re: Strange water issue in BAT
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2017, 10:37:45 AM »

Alrighty, here's some better pics of the issue.

Looking off the end of the map, you can see the distant ground through the invisible water. The real water is far below:


This is a narrow river. See how the water texture is waaaay down:




You can see clearly how the water level is at SEA level, though the landscape is at normal level. Whyever...
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"It's totally foolproof, until you mess something up." -Captain Dawson My OP rig: CybertronPC Palladium custom desktop computer, GPU: NVidia GeForce GTX 1060 6GB GDDR5, CPU: Intel Core i5-6600K 3.5 GHz 6M Cache Skylake Quad-Core, RAM: 8.00 GB, Motherboard: Intel H110 Chipset, SSD: 240GB, HDD: 1TB, OS: Windows 10

dpeters95

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Re: Strange water issue in BAT
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2017, 12:39:53 PM »

Wow, sorry, I certainly do not see that!

You are correct, it does not appear to be a map issue since I do not see that in my install.
jpten, you suggest it is a map issue, are you saying that you see the same thing as Capt. Dawson?

Other than checking the BAT download file sizes and re-installing BAT, I don't know what else to recommend.  I would first re-install just the CORE BAT files (Bat01-Bat29) and see if the problem still exists.  If not, add one at a time and recheck.

Good luck!
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jpten

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Re: Strange water issue in BAT
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2017, 01:29:18 PM »

jpten, you suggest it is a map issue, are you saying that you see the same thing as Capt. Dawson?

Oh I see it and I can feel his concern.  Please understand that the water=4 issue is because for whatever reasons higher details effects will produce a difference visually in water level (probably from the layering of transparencies to make water look more 'real') and is the solution to ships that float above the water surface in past problems.  This however was apparently not the issue Capt. Dawson was inquiring about and only confused the matter.

  Water levels is from the way IL2 was first put together. 'The world' is assembled from reading the grey scale values on several .tga format images for each map named map_c, map_h, map_t...etc.   I learned what I know (very basic) when I created the The Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Railway on  a Channel40 map mod.   Land with associated heights is read from one map, water from another, roads and rails from a third, coastlines IIRC from another...etc  and it is all put together.  Railroads and roads are similar with height issues and will disappear into hilly terrain and magically reappear when it flattens back out.  Modders have tried to replicate waterfalls but the game system works against them.
   All the mods that have ever been done have taken IL2 beyond the detail originally envisioned.   To some degree, not to cast aspersions upon the creators of IL2, I believe that to some extent it must have been said, " Water level?  It's a flying game, it looks fine to me. If you are that low, you need to pull up!""  Now, in 2017, we have flying boats and stuff and it can be an issue.  I remember the great debate on how to make a submerged sub that could be depth charged but in the game engine nothing exists below water level.  We now have submerged sub objects but they are still 'tricks' limited to the game design and not IIRC true models below water level.
   IF it is a problem limited to Capt. Dawson's install it is IMHO either a graphic rendering setting or limitation by card or drivers OR it is in the files for each map, specifically on map_h (map makers correct me if I am wrong) but each map has its' own file.  If there is a global water level setting (beyond the effects graphic settings seem to have) I am unaware of it. 
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SAS~Monty27

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Re: Strange water issue in BAT
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2017, 06:41:26 PM »

Still a tremendous lack of detail or data, nothing to work with logically.

What map, exactly where?  I would like to have a simple mission file that places me in same spot so we can compare.  I'm not about to go hunting up and down dozens of maps randomly lookng for something I never noticed before.  Place us there exactly, if we can see it we can fix it or at least explain it...
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Captain Dawson

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Re: Strange water issue in BAT
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2017, 08:15:10 PM »

Still a tremendous lack of detail or data, nothing to work with logically.

What map, exactly where?  I would like to have a simple mission file that places me in same spot so we can compare.  I'm not about to go hunting up and down dozens of maps randomly lookng for something I never noticed before.  Place us there exactly, if we can see it we can fix it or at least explain it...

Pretty much all I can explain is in my previous posts here. I posted quite a bit of information, if you could look back the earlier posts that would be good.  :)

I have the mission file in earlier post here, but the location doesn't matter that much. I have this issue on pretty much all the maps. Any place that has an inland above-sea-level river, just has an empty hole with the water texture far below. When an aircraft touches down where water should be, it just floats on an invisible wall. Simply put, ALL the water is at sea level, regardless of river altitude. This of course leads to a bunch of other weird visual glitches. See the previous screenshots...

As aforementioned, nothing relevant in the log, nothing activated in JSGME, no changes from stock BAT. Never had the problem in CUP and neither did anyone else, so it's not an original map issue. I've tried stock and edited GPU settings, no effect.

Any ideas? Is it just better to re-download and start from scratch?  :-|

Thank you for taking the time to look at this!
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"It's totally foolproof, until you mess something up." -Captain Dawson My OP rig: CybertronPC Palladium custom desktop computer, GPU: NVidia GeForce GTX 1060 6GB GDDR5, CPU: Intel Core i5-6600K 3.5 GHz 6M Cache Skylake Quad-Core, RAM: 8.00 GB, Motherboard: Intel H110 Chipset, SSD: 240GB, HDD: 1TB, OS: Windows 10

SAS~Monty27

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Re: Strange water issue in BAT
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2017, 08:40:00 PM »

Elevated water anomalies on some maps, preventing their use by seaplanes inland, is related to the construction of the maps themselves.

It is not related to B.A.T., C.U.P. or anything else that simply installs and uses maps but does not change them.  In this regard I find the thread title inaccurate and un-necesarily alarming.  Makes it sound like B.A.T. has caused a problem, which it hasn't.

I strongly recommend that thread titles are unfair to blame B.A.T. right from the off.  Mention the problem by all means but if you start off by singling out B.A.T. as the culprit you lead everyone off in the wrong direction.  In future I will not respond to misleading titles in threads.

Thanks to Jim for pointing out the most relevant threads that explain the issue.

http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,37315.0.html
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,48625.0.html
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,38363.0.html
 


It is not anpparent on all maps though.  I recommend a little water tourism on La Chute, or some bush flying over Zipolare's Norway. 



These shots are from inland waterways, way inland.  For La Chute we do have the possibility to do the Dam-Buster missions and the inland water is perfect throughout.  It has to do with the way the map builder manages the water elevation.

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Captain Dawson

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Re: Strange water issue totally unrelated to BAT
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2017, 08:11:03 AM »

Elevated water anomalies on some maps, preventing their use by seaplanes inland, is related to the construction of the maps themselves.

It is not related to B.A.T., C.U.P. or anything else that simply installs and uses maps but does not change them.  In this regard I find the thread title inaccurate and un-necesarily alarming.  Makes it sound like B.A.T. has caused a problem, which it hasn't.

I strongly recommend that thread titles are unfair to blame B.A.T. right from the off.  Mention the problem by all means but if you start off by singling out B.A.T. as the culprit you lead everyone off in the wrong direction.  In future I will not respond to misleading titles in threads.
 

Lets just set this straight, I was not trying to blame BAT. Perhaps you misunderstood my intent? If it was only a BAT issue, someone else would have posted about it by now. I labeled the thread "BAT" because people get slammed for posting without specifying their game version. I want to make everyone sure I have posted in the right section. I do not really care what causes the issue, I just want to focus on the solution!  :)  We all know you have spent a huge amount of time and energy in BAT, and you try to fix issues as you can. I don't know about other posters, but I don't blame the mod makers by asking them for help in fixing it.  :)  I do mean this in all seriousness. No hard feelings?  :)

Mention the problem by all means but if you start off by singling out B.A.T. as the culprit you lead everyone off in the wrong direction.

Maybe you misunderstood my intentions? Do you like thread title now?  :) lol
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"It's totally foolproof, until you mess something up." -Captain Dawson My OP rig: CybertronPC Palladium custom desktop computer, GPU: NVidia GeForce GTX 1060 6GB GDDR5, CPU: Intel Core i5-6600K 3.5 GHz 6M Cache Skylake Quad-Core, RAM: 8.00 GB, Motherboard: Intel H110 Chipset, SSD: 240GB, HDD: 1TB, OS: Windows 10

dpeters95

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Re: Strange water issue in BAT
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2017, 08:26:27 AM »

Ok, after a lot of testing and map file examination, here is what I found:

1)  After many test flights on all the Spain maps, I did not see any areas where the plane/water was below the adjacent land.  There were a few spots where the water seamed to abruptly rise and fall with the surrounding terrain.  Jir could have possibly leveled these areas on the map a little more but my plane landed fine on the water without hitting any barrier.

2)  I disassembled all the Spain-Jir map files and looked at how Jir built the maps.  The Map_H (height map) and the Map_C (land/water map) all appear to be built correctly.  The water height in IL2 must be at RGB 0 (Black) to be useable in the game by aircraft and ships.  If it is created using any other number it cannot be landed on nor will AI ships use it.  All of his water (sea & rivers) are set to a "0" height.

3)  Now, I was able to "sort of" produce a view similar to what Captain Dawson posted on those few places I mentioned in (1) above if I reduced my Landscape Detail from "Perfect" to anything else...  The rivers were displayed with some parts water and some parts land.  However, I was still able to land on the water.

4)  As Simon mentioned in a previous message, this is not BAT related.  I get the same results in CUP and with UP3.  This is an IL2 thing...

First, I would make sure you have Landscape Detail set to perfect.  Other than that, it might be bad download files or graphics card settings???  Sorry I can't be more specific but that's all I can think of from my end.

Dennis
 
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Captain Dawson

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Re: Strange water issue totally unrelated to BAT
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2017, 08:37:40 AM »

Now, I was able to "sort of" produce a view similar to what Captain Dawson posted on those few places I mentioned in (1) above if I reduced my Landscape Detail from "Perfect" to anything else...  The rivers were displayed with some parts water and some parts land.  However, I was still able to land on the water.
I you try it in highest altitude river, like near Andorra or the south end of Northwest Spain maps you will see it. Move around in 3D view and you will see the texture depth difference I was talking about. When the camera is stationary, everything looks as it should be. It's when you start to move around at low-level that you start to see issues.

I disassembled all the Spain-Jir map files and looked at how Jir built the maps.  The Map_H (height map) and the Map_C (land/water map) all appear to be built correctly.  The water height in IL2 must be at RGB 0 (Black) to be useable in the game by aircraft and ships.  If it is created using any other number it cannot be landed on nor will AI ships use it.  All of his water (sea & rivers) are set to a "0" height.
Ok, well this would probably explain it then.

First, I would make sure you have Landscape Detail set to perfect.  Other than that, it might be bad download files or graphics card settings???  Sorry I can't be more specific but that's all I can think of from my end.
It's on perfect. This is either simply a map issue, of a deficiency in my PC. Or both.

After more extensive searching, I found the same issue in a similar map of VP Modpack. So yes, it is a map issue as you said. I apologize I did not realize this before, I simply saw it in BAT and had never seen the issue before in other modpacks, so I assumed it was only in BAT. Turns out, BAT is the first modpack I've used that has a lot of high altitude water maps, so first time I notice. I am actually surprised not many people have noticed this before, because this issue really affects the low-flying playability of the Spain maps at high altitude. Typically, you would not notice sea level water in raised-altitude rivers, and usually maps conceal this by raising the river banks only slightly above the water level, as in War over Italy. In above-sea-level maps like Slovakia, the map maker can simply make the sea level higher to match the rivers and "pretend" the rivers are at sea level, since there is no ocean in Slovakia. In Spain maps however, the changes in altitude are so dramatic, the water can't be both at sea level and high altitude at same time, possibly due to game's limitation. So basically no fix for me. At least now I understand why!

I think now I understand why I was only one that noticed the problem, because I was flying too low over Spain rivers.  :P  Solution: If I fly at safe altitude, since this is only visible at low-level flight, I won't see the problem! I love it when a plan comes together!  :D

Thank you for your help guys! Unless you have other points, I'm done I guess.  :)
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"It's totally foolproof, until you mess something up." -Captain Dawson My OP rig: CybertronPC Palladium custom desktop computer, GPU: NVidia GeForce GTX 1060 6GB GDDR5, CPU: Intel Core i5-6600K 3.5 GHz 6M Cache Skylake Quad-Core, RAM: 8.00 GB, Motherboard: Intel H110 Chipset, SSD: 240GB, HDD: 1TB, OS: Windows 10

Uufflakke

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Re: Strange water issue totally unrelated to BAT
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2017, 09:43:56 AM »

I assumed it was common knowledge that the 'high altitude water' issue is related to the limitations of the game engine.
That is not possible to have water on 2 different levels. It was visible already on Zipzap's Alpen map in 2008.
Several mapmakers got confronted with the issue.

In above-sea-level maps like Slovakia, the map maker can simply make the sea level higher to match the rivers and "pretend" the rivers are at sea level, since there is no ocean in Slovakia.

Well, try flying over the mountainous north of default (or modded) Slovakia and have a look at the lakes over there.  ;)
Same issue. And we have the map since 2009.



By the way, there are a couple of maps where rivers and sea are at same level and have a similar 'look under the carpet' phenomenon.
But these are mapmakers errors and not because of game engine limitations.  ;)
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Captain Dawson

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Re: Strange water issue totally unrelated to BAT
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2017, 10:00:29 AM »

I assumed it was common knowledge that the 'high altitude water' issue is related to the limitations of the game engine.
That is not possible to have water on 2 different levels. Many mapmakers got confronted with it.

In above-sea-level maps like Slovakia, the map maker can simply make the sea level higher to match the rivers and "pretend" the rivers are at sea level, since there is no ocean in Slovakia.

Well, try flying over the mountainous north of default (or modded) Slovakia and have a look at the lakes over there.  ;)
Same issue. And we have the map since 2009.

Well, I was referring to the general river altitude, but wow, I've flown over there many times and never noticed! I guess you wouldn't see it unless you came down low...

By the way, there are several maps where rivers and sea are at same level and have a similar 'look under the carpet' phenomenon.
But these are mapmakers errors and not because of game engine limitations.  ;)

Ok. Makes sense.

Thanks!
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"It's totally foolproof, until you mess something up." -Captain Dawson My OP rig: CybertronPC Palladium custom desktop computer, GPU: NVidia GeForce GTX 1060 6GB GDDR5, CPU: Intel Core i5-6600K 3.5 GHz 6M Cache Skylake Quad-Core, RAM: 8.00 GB, Motherboard: Intel H110 Chipset, SSD: 240GB, HDD: 1TB, OS: Windows 10
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