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Author Topic: AI behavior in 4.12  (Read 12594 times)

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mort 1

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AI behavior in 4.12
« on: July 28, 2014, 03:15:29 PM »

I have a 4.09 install with the Cert AI added.  It solved the constant Split S/rolling dive that invariably started when you closed to a certain distance from an enemy fighter.  I now have a 4.12 install and I'm back to endless rolling dives.  Is there an equivalent mod to CertAI that will solve this problem?  I have read that the AI in 4.12 is improved but to me it seems to be a return to the early days of Il2
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Whiskey_Sierra_972

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Re: AI behavior in 4.12
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2014, 04:23:16 AM »

Sorry but I believe that the great diappointing 409 issue wasn't the split S but the infinite climbing....

....anyway you can ask for a mod that make AI plane fly straight when player is on their six....

 ;D

....maybe you're not alone....

 :P
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SAS~Malone

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Re: AI behavior in 4.12
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2014, 05:01:15 AM »

agreed, i'd settle for infinite split S's anyday, before the 'stairway to heaven' tactics that you can simply do nothing about... :D
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greybeard

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Re: AI behavior in 4.12
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2014, 01:31:54 AM »

The problem is that IL-2 was born (and probably will die) with some wrong basic concept. Personally, I think first of them is having different flight models for player and AI: this is always a warranty of arguable confrontation between the two.

Players who comply, like Mort, are often derided by old hands as if they wanted an arcade game: it's not so.

Taking our fun seriously, experience of game where player and AI have same flight model, and this latter is really based on physics, teaches that AI performs only realistic maneuvers and no player has ever complained about this. Because everybody understand when something is false and there aren't "experten" who are the sole able to savor the flavor of what looks arguable to the mass.

Above mentioned game, when fiddling with its flight model, shows how it causes AI different behaviors when performing evasive maneuvers; reducing ailerons effectiveness, for instance, caused AI evading more on the vertical than by snap roll (split-S, scissors). Nobody never touched AI algorithms.

In IL-2 we're always fiddling with "AI routines", arguing if it is better AI evading by barrel roll, never-ending turning climb or other fancy aerobatics. Because IL-2 AI does not bases its own behavior on aircraft features, but on written routines.

To be honest, I play IL-2 because, all in, it's the best I have, but I see its shortcomings. I suggest to Mort to try various versions and modpacks, choosing eventually his favorite.
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mort 1

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Re: AI behavior in 4.12
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2014, 04:25:39 PM »

Thank you greybeard.  I certainly don't want an arcade game nor do I want the AI to fly straight and level so I can shoot them down.  It is the lack of variety that I find so frustrating.  I have had CR 42's climb with Spitfires, Fiat 50's/Ki 43's give Hellcats climbing lessons.  I can live with the AI "cheats" but I would like to see the variety in Veteran and Ace levels of AI as I used to see in Cert's AI Mod.  Can any of you suggest anything available in individual mods for 4.12 (other than the Full Monty which I am a bit intimidated by given the huge download).  I guess I'm wondering if some some small part of the Full Monty Mods is available as a stand alone that I can add to 4.12?
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greybeard

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Re: AI behavior in 4.12
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2014, 01:39:04 AM »

Dear Mort,

personally, I'm sure that "humanizing" AI behavior in IL-2 is like "squaring the circle" for the simple reason that I mentioned in my previous message: AI is designed to perform a prearranged set of maneuvers.

Nevertheless, some talented programmers worked on these routines to get the most credible AI behavior. Certificate is one of them and got universal appreciation. Personally, I went up to 4.12.2 to get back and stuck to 4.09+UP2.01 (which includes Cert AI), and I'm happy with it.

I think that among the many dichotomies that you can do for humanity, there is that between those who must believe and those who must understand: giving for granted that you belong to this latter, my best suggestion could be "try and make your own idea". It must be said that there are also other boundary conditions that may affect your choice, technical and personal. As a consequence, your scouting could be limited at some extent; be aware, though, that not always "the bigger the better" or "the latest the greatest".

Have fun!
GB
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Mick

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Re: AI behavior in 4.12
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2014, 02:52:07 AM »


 Personally, I went up to 4.12.2 to get back and stuck to 4.09+UP2.01 (which includes Cert AI), and I'm happy with it.

I think that among the many dichotomies that you can do for humanity, there is that between those who must believe and those who must understand: giving for granted that you belong to this latter, my best suggestion could be "try and make your own idea". It must be said that there are also other boundary conditions that may affect your choice, technical and personal. As a consequence, your scouting could be limited at some extent; be aware, though, that not always "the bigger the better" or "the latest the greatest".

Have fun!
GB

... greybeard, amigo, you have no idea how much I agree with what you wrote ...!  ;)

... and there are also several other very useful AI mods available by Checkyersix and Sani for 4.09 ...  :P

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,11230.0.html

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,7260.0.html

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,14035.0.html

Certificate's AI mod is here:

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,36.0.html

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Epervier

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Re: AI behavior in 4.12
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2014, 02:55:49 AM »

Je vois pas dans ta liste le Mod AI qui empêche les AI d'embrasser les montagnes...
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Mick

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Re: AI behavior in 4.12
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2014, 03:29:25 AM »

... je sais, j'ai pas retrouvé le lien dans "Modworx", tu sais où il est ...?  :P
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mort 1

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Re: AI behavior in 4.12
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2014, 06:18:18 PM »

Thank you all.  Mick, many of those mods are perfect for my 4.09 setup.  DBW has much of that incorporated I have discovered.  As for my 4.12, I think like Greybeard I will simply wait until some of these additions are incorporated.  As it is now it has many features that I admire but in some regards it feels like I am going back in time.  Again, many thanks.  Greybeard, you are right--less is more!
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Highlandman

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Re: AI behavior in 4.12
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2014, 09:35:07 PM »

I think there´s many good things in latest AI also. Or is it perhaps different AI in HSFX 7.02? I play mostly that, with 4.12. Can imagine it could be the endless road to make "perfect" AI.
Hope anyway that mod guys have energy to improve that AI again in future, I love IL2!  :) Buy the way, are those AI planes also little bit too fast??? And, if I have noticed right, do they, example some old fighters with open cockpit, follow you in combat, when you climb fast and high by much better plane than enemy´s plane, do they follow you TOO high??? I mean, enough old fighters with open cockpit just can´t follow you very high. Because plane can´t, and pilot can´t breath in high altitudes.   
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greybeard

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Re: AI behavior in 4.12
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2014, 01:17:25 AM »

Mick
I'm glad that you share my idea. Also, thanks for the links. But I tried first two and noticed first (AI ground attack upgrade), although shortening AI routine, causes AI performing weird low-level zooms to rapidly regain altitude. Second one (AI overheating), I checked causes all Spit V engines melting down. About Cert's AI, I think all of its features are included in UP2.01, but landing light dusk/night management.

Highlandman
I'm highly tempted to suggest you going to Florence, at "Galleria dell'Accademia" and watch Michelangelo's "Prigioni" to feel how things can only born perfect! As I already said, IL-2 was based on some arguable concepts and I'm afraid we'll never have a perfect AI. The above mentioned examples may demonstrate how hard is dealing with it and how uncertain can be results.

About "old planes", be aware that open cockpit doesn't mean lack of oxygen mask: altitude record for propeller planes still belongs to an open cockpit aircraft! Nevertheless, I think there are arguable things also inside flight model: I saw planes Cx one fourth/one sixth littler than real and affecting drag according to the cube of it, instead to be directly proportional. No wonder that planes show weird behavior; it's wonderful when someone (like Cert for AI) gets a good set on such basis.

Cheers,
GB
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