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Author Topic: Detailed information on Mosquito NF.XVII/XIX  (Read 18512 times)

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sputnikshock

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Re: Detailed information on Mosquito NF.XVII/XIX
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2012, 04:59:42 PM »

Wow, thanks for the research Kopfdorfer! Very cool. But still wondering why there was no clock in the Mossie pit...

The second to last image in your post was actually the one I used as a reference for the second cockpit variant I posted.
Also this: (I know it shows a Mk.8  ::))
With all the material you posted plus everything I could find myself I think I now know exactly what I don't know... ;D
And that is: All circumstancial evidence leads me to believe that either the synchronizer (BC 1148) or control unit (BC 1150) was installed in front of the radio operator's seat, below the indicator (BC 1151, the one with the actual radar screen CRTs). The one that wasn't there, was installed behind the pilot's seat, rotated 90deg so the radio operator could lean back and use it. But, which one was where???  ??? :-[ :(

Whatever was in front of the R/O should be in my cockpit. Now I doubt I will find the answer to this on the web (too much time spent searching for it already). So unless someone happens to know, this is what I will do:

If I can find a picture of the synchronizer (which is what I believe what was below the indicator box) good enough to create a texture from it, it will put it in. If I don't, I will just leave the cockpit as it is now.
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sputnikshock

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Re: Detailed information on Mosquito NF.XVII/XIX
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2012, 07:32:15 AM »

To wrap this things up, here is an extra skin:

The crew of this bird was so grateful when maintainance finally put a C&C device into the nose of their ship, they couldn't resist and pay tribute to the genius from a secret radar development facility who invented this by painting his name as a noseart... ;)
Enjoy.

http://www.mediafire.com/?hhqvb75hvipmknu

Again it's based on VPmedia's B.XVI skin.
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Thunda

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Re: Detailed information on Mosquito NF.XVII/XIX
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2012, 03:00:46 PM »

Hey sputnikshock- have got the official de havilland mosquito manual- am on my phone at the moment but will scan in relevant sections on Monday. By the way- you were right about the XVII nose!!!
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Thunda

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Re: Detailed information on Mosquito NF.XVII/XIX
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2012, 07:53:44 AM »

Hey Sputnikshock. As discussed, here are some scans from the actual 'manual' for the de Havilland Mosquito NFII, Mk XII and the XVII.

Ive just scanned in a 'taster' as Im at work, and there is tons of stuff- a lot of it is just written, but have scanned in some of the best drawings regarding the nose and the radar install. If there is anything  you particularly want scanned, let me know. There are pilots notes, ground handling notes, construction, wiring, rigging, you name it. There are handling notes for the Merlins but no cut-aways. Scanned in @ 300dpi so should zoom in well- can PM you hi-res if you need.





















Forgot the most important ones:

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sputnikshock

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Re: Detailed information on Mosquito NF.XVII/XIX
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2012, 08:54:41 AM »

Very cool! Many thanks!

So I see that it ideed was the synchronizer that was below the indicator.
Now all I need is a decent (color) photograph of an AI Mk.X Type BC 1148 synchronizer... :(
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Thunda

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Re: Detailed information on Mosquito NF.XVII/XIX
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2012, 05:02:40 AM »

Hi sputnikshock- thanks for the download- will be strapping on my flying helmet this evening!

Havent managed to track down the pic we discussed yet, but have uploaded some scans that may interest you. The Nav/Radar op I have been researching- Sqn Ldr G.E.Bennett DFC, flew a test with Group Captain 'Cats Eyes' Cunningham in a Mosquito, where they tested how fast they could go in a dive with full boost and nitrous oxide- 440 ASI before they entered 'compressability' apparently (!). So I have uploaded some sections from Bennetts log book. Heres the page dealing with that incident- (he writes he is flying in a MkXXV, but thats a bomber version- Im guessing its a mistake)


Heres one where they shot down an Me410- my research has found it belonged to Lt Helmut Siol & Fw Bernhard Liehr of 1/KG 51:



Another concerning a He177- possibly one of I/KG 100's:



And another where they shot down 2 V1's, and were brought down by the shrapnel, parachuting into the Channel at night- this incident is mentioned in C.F.Rawnsley's excellent seminal book on RAF nightfighting, "Night Fighter"- Rawnsley was 'Cats Eyes' Cunningham's Nav/Radar Op. 'P' Planes are how they used to refer to V1's- 'pilotless planes'.



Ive uploaded Bennetts combat reports from 96 sqn. He quite clearly writes that they are flying in a MkXIII Mosquito, and they are using MkVIII radar- which would be the thimble nose!!!

Me410 destroyed: 


Me410 damaged- possibly a Me 410 of V/KG 2: 


Ju88 or 188 destroyed: 


Ju88 or He177 Front: 
 

and back:
 

Fw190 destroyed- either Ofw Rudolf Berghäuser or Fw Georg Sprint of 2/SKG 10: 


Also, the photo I posted on the first page- a pic of MM682 at RAF Ford. I have since found out that was an NF XIX initially issued to R.A.E. and then used by the Fighter Interception Development Squadron (code ZQ). It was subsequently sold to Sweden post-war.
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Kopfdorfer

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Re: Detailed information on Mosquito NF.XVII/XIX
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2012, 06:50:44 AM »

Hey Guys,

                This is a fantastic thread and mod , and dare I say it the new FM is every bit as exciting as the mod itself. The Olegian Mossie FM has languished in mediocrity - if the real thing had flown like the FM suggests , the real aircraft would NEVER have achieved the successes it did. I am not interested in ANY uber over modelled FM , just those that reflect in essence the actual attributes of the aircraft modelled. I can even swallow my pride and say it is okay if they are tweaked a wee bit to make the game/sim more enjoyable - not on my behalf , but on that of those who want to fly head to head online.

At any rate congratulations Sputnik , and nice supporting info Thunda.
Have either of you read the book about the British Mossie bomber crew of a pilot and a nav both with the surname Broom ? Not related!
I think it's called " The Two Brooms" or "The Flying Brooms". No joke.
A really good read.

                                        The Two Brooms
                                       

Found the Book Cover... good thing I don't trust my aging memory too much!
                                                         

Oh , found a short bio.. I guess it's an obit.
Squadron Leader TJ Tommy Broom DFC (deceased)

                                                           
Thomas John Broom was born on January 22 1914 at Portishead, Bristol, and educated at Slade Road School, leaving when he was 14 to work as a garage hand. As soon as he reached his 18th birthday he enlisted in the RAF and trained as an armourer. He served in the Middle East, initially in Sudan, and in 1937 was sent to Palestine to join No 6 Squadron. With the threat of war in Europe, however, there was an urgent need for more air observers; Broom volunteered and returned to Britain for training. In February 1939 he joined No 105 Squadron at Harwell, which was equipped with the Fairey Battle. On the day the Second World War broke out No 105 flew to Reims in northern France to support the British Expeditionary Force, and within three weeks Broom had flown his first reconnaissance over Germany. During a raid on Cologne in November 1940 his aircraft was severely damaged by anti-aircraft fire, but the crew managed to struggle back to England where they were forced to bail out as they ran out of fuel. For the next 12 months Broom served as an instructor. He returned to his squadron in January 1942, just as the Mosquito entered service, and on August 25 was sent to attack a power station near Cologne. As the aircraft flew at treetop height across Belgium, the crew spotted an electricity pylon. The pilot tried to avoid it but the starboard engine struck the top of the pylon and the aircraft ploughed into pine trees. Both men survived the crash, and were picked up by members of the Belgian Resistance. They were escorted to St Jean de Luz by the Belgian-run "Comet" escape line, and Broom crossed the mountains under the aegis of a Spanish Basque guide on September 8; his pilot followed him two weeks later. Twenty-five years after the event Broom returned to St Jean de Luz to meet the woman who had sheltered him from the Germans. After the German advance into the Low Countries on May 10 1940, the Battle squadrons were thrown against Panzers and attacked the crucial bridges across the main rivers, suffering terrible losses. After the fall of France, Broom and some of his comrades managed to reach Cherbourg to board a ship for England. No 105 Squadron was re-equipped with the Blenheim, and during the Battle of Britain Broom attacked the German barges assembling at the Channel ports in preparation for an invasion of England. After spending a period as an instructor at 13 OTU he rejoined 105 Squadron on Mosquitoes, they were in fact the first squadron in the RAF to receive them. Through early 1942 he was navigator on many of the daylight raids carried out by 105 Squadron. In August 1943 Tommy Broom was the chief ground instructor at the Mosquito Training Unit when he first met his namesake Flight Lieutenant Ivor Broom (later Air Marshal Sir Ivor Broom), an experienced low-level bomber pilot. They immediately teamed up and flew together for the remainder of the war, in 163 Squadron as part of the Light Night Strike Force forming a formidable on Mosquitoes including the low level attack on the Dortmund - Ems Canal and completing 58 operations together, including 22 to Berlin. Known as The Flying Brooms Initially they joined No 571 Squadron as part of Air Vice-Marshal Don Bennetts Pathfinder Force, and on May 26 1944 they flew their first operation, an attack on Ludswigshafen. On August 9 they took part in a spectacular night-time mission to drop mines in the Dortmund-Ems Canal. They descended rapidly from 25,000ft to fly along the canal at 150ft, releasing their mines under heavy anti-aircraft fire. The force of eight Mosquitos closed the canal for a number of weeks. Tommy Brooms brilliant navigation had helped ensure the success of the raid, and he was awarded a DFC. The Brooms took part in another daring attack on New Years Day 1945. In order to stem the flow of German reinforcements to the Ardennes, the RAF mounted operations to sever the rail links leading to the area, and the Brooms were sent to block the tunnel at Kaiserslauten. They were approaching the tunnel at low level just as a train was entering it. They dropped their 4,000lb bomb, with a time delay fuse, in the entrance and 11 seconds later it exploded, completely blocking the tunnel – the train did not emerge. Tommy Broom received a Bar to his DFC and his pilot was awarded a DSO. When Ivor Broom was given command of No 163 Squadron, Tommy went with him as the squadrons navigation leader and they flew together until the end of the war. Their last five operations were to Berlin, where searchlights posed a perpetual problem. On one occasion they were coned for as long as a quarter of an hour. After twisting, turning and diving to escape the glare, Ivor Broom asked his disoriented navigator for a course to base. Tommy replied: "Fly north with a dash of west, while I sort myself out." A few weeks later Tommy Broom was awarded a second Bar to his DFC – an extremely rare honour for a bomber navigator. Tommy Broom left the RAF in September 1945, but he and his pilot remained close friends until Sir Ivors death in 2003. Sadly Tommy Broom passed away on 18th May 2010.


Sorry it's a bit of a digression and he was not a NF pilot - delete if you like - but it would make a great campaign!!!

Thanks again for your care about the Mossies.

Kopfdorfer
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Thunda

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Re: Detailed information on Mosquito NF.XVII/XIX
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2012, 07:10:48 AM »

Well, its sputnikshocks thread, but I find this info facinating, Kopfdorfer. These guys were true heroes with nerves of steel and deserve to be remembered.

My guy, Bennett, went on a mission against the lock gates and barges on the Dortmund-Ems canal whilst serving in Beaufighters with 68sqn in Feb 1943. See:


Apparently, only his aircraft and that of his squadron co made the target, flying across the channel at zero feet through thick fog- the rest of the squadron turned back and assumed they were lost! The Beaufighter is another aircraft I would like to see overhauled in IL2.....

Really looking forward to having an updated FM that does the Mossie justice. Im sure we have all seen the footage of them slow rolling with one engine shut down and prop feathered- they were a pilots dream and virtually un-catchable by the Luftwaffe until late in the war. We need a FM that reflects that.
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sputnikshock

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Re: Detailed information on Mosquito NF.XVII/XIX
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2012, 07:23:10 AM »

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh! Server just ate my message.

Ok, again.


Quote
This is a fantastic thread and mod , and dare I say it the new FM is every bit as exciting as the mod itself.
Thank you!

Quote
The Olegian Mossie FM has languished in mediocrity - if the real thing had flown like the FM suggests , the real aircraft would NEVER have achieved the successes it did. I am not interested in ANY uber over modelled FM , just those that reflect in essence the actual attributes of the aircraft modelled. I can even swallow my pride and say it is okay if they are tweaked a wee bit to make the game/sim more enjoyable - not on my behalf , but on that of those who want to fly head to head online.
Totally agree. Took a conservative approach. In theory, if the B.XVI aerodynamics are realistic - and those (almost) same areodynamics should then apply for this ship - and engines and max speeds stay the same, then this shouldn't be a ueber FM. However, it flies in Oleg's skies and theory doesn't always apply.
The stock FM was far off though anyway. A Me 110 was just no match for a Mossie. Not even close! At night, it was Kdo. Welter's Me 262s that finally managed to score against the wooden wonder. Even a lightened He 219 was no match. At altitudes where a Mossie was still quite at home, the Uhu could only do slow turns at low bank angles.
Anyway, the FM sure needs refinement, but it's a start...
Quote

Sorry it's a bit of a digression and he was not a NF pilot - delete if you like - but it would make a great campaign!!!
:o NO WAY! It stays where it is! Thanks for the interesting read.
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Thunda

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Re: Detailed information on Mosquito NF.XVII/XIX
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2012, 05:40:18 AM »

Hey sputnikshock- have you seen this PDF from mossie.org about the MkX radar? Has a picture of the syncronizer (B&W though). See 4th down, 'Peter Verney'.

http://www.mossie.org/donated_files/donated_files.htm

Its possible that you can see the edge of the syncronizer- in colour- on the right in this photo:



Also, have a listen to these sounds-

Start-up: http://www.mossie.org/sounds/mosquito_startup_no_voiceover.mp3

Fly Past: http://www.mossie.org/sounds/mosquito_flypast.mp3  (2nd & 3rd ones are best)

Wonder if somebody here could incorporate this into a format we could use in the game?

Im having real problems finding a good top and side view of the thimble nose for the MkXII (which would give us all the NF variants up to the MkXXX) apart from the 2 I posted on the second page:



and from the manual:



Or from an Airfix kit!!! (if you click on the picture, you get a close up of the nose with panel lines)

http://www.a2zeemodels.co.uk/mosquito-nf-mk-xii--xiii-conversion-set-5004-p.asp

Has anyone got any good MkXII pics?

Edit: found a couple more at the IWM site- not perfect, and they are not all of the nose, but its some more info....






Not sure about this one- claims to be of a MkXII- looks like a mix of the bull and the thimble:

   ;)
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Red13

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Re: Detailed information on Mosquito NF.XVII/XIX
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2012, 01:47:27 PM »

Interesting thread.  :)
Re the Mosquito NF XIII (AI Mk VIII) flight model, I was thumbing through Armand van Ishoven's book 'The Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain' recently and came across a reference to the use of Nitrous Oxide injection on this Mark. (Actually, the book title is a misnomer because it covers the entire Luftwaffe campaign against Britain). There is a long anecdote regarding the shooting down of a night intruder Me 410 (of 1/KG51 9K+JH, pilot Richard Pahl) and a retrospective commentary from the British pilot involved (Wing Commander Crew), confirming that he flew an NF XIII Mosquito (marked 'ZJ-V' serial MM499) fitted with N20 injection on that night.

Apparently, the 500lb N20 gas tank was mounted in the bomb bay and some copper tubing with valvework led up to the cockpit. A simple tap turned it on and it gave 3 minutes of extra power in a chase scenario. If there was a leak "a kind of snow filled the cockpit"(!) The installation was necessary because intruders were coming over fast and high at night (such as Me 410s, Ju 188s and Ar 234s) in 1944.

Unfortunately, there are no performance figures given for the use of N20 boost and I can't find any other references to it, but there is no doubt it was used. Maybe someone else knows more?

I mention this as food for thought if the FMs are to be refined, because it could be regarded as quite a significant modification to the Mosquito.
Offhand, I can't think of any other instances of N20 injection being used on a merlin powered aircraft. (OK, Water methanol injection was used on merlins after the war to improve take-off power on civil aircraft and liquid oxygen (LOX) was used experimentally on high-altitude Spits and Westland Welkins, but that's it - I think?)
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Thunda

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Re: Detailed information on Mosquito NF.XVII/XIX
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2012, 07:45:34 AM »

@Red13 The night fighter navigator I am researching, G.E.Bennett, sometimes flew with Edward Crew, but his normal pilot was Squadron Ldr Parker-Rees of 96 squadron. They make several mentions of carrying and using Nitrous Oxide in their combat reports. See here:



Parker Rees states that, whilst chasing a Me410 in a Mosquito MkXIII (MkVIII radar), the range became 'stuck' at 4000ft. He then used nitrous oxide for 1 minute and states that he was 'easily able to close to minimum range' of 1000ft and shoot down the Me410. Or, here, where he mentions carrying nitrous but not needing it to overhaul and shoot down either a Ju88 or 188:



As for performance figures, the only thing I have is a mention of a test done by Bennett and the famous Group Captain 'Cats Eyes' Cunningham DSO+Bar, DFC+Bar in Mosquito 'T' MkXIII of 96sqn. They wanted to see the absolute maximum speed of a Mosquito MkXIII, and the test is mentioned in Rawnsleys book 'Night Fighter'. They put the aircraft in a dive from 8000ft, using +12lbs boost @ 2850 RPM and full nitrous. They recorded 440 ASI before they entered 'compressability'! See first entry here:



Note, a flight with Wing Commander Crew, and a seperate victory over a 'P' plane- what they used to call V1's.

@sputnikshock: you were quite right, the 'lash-up' radar in the intruder FB MkVI's was known as the MkXV, commonly seen on the wings of Fireflies, but installed in the 'bomb' nose in the Mossie. I was thinking of the MkIII ASV fitted to the Costal Command anti U boat Wellington MkXIV's in the 'chin' radome. I think we already have that nose in the 'Naval' mosquito (Sea Mosquito TR33) by GJE52 hint, hint...... :D ;)
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