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Author Topic: F6F Hellcat  (Read 19098 times)

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CWatson

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2012, 07:22:25 PM »

Hi,

yes indeed, reading about the DBW FMs it was something that I was annoyed with, when I realized that the F6Fs had again the faulty FM.

Can you re-work please the F4U FM too, so both will be included in the next buttons update?

Buttons?

 Heck I am trying to solicit some DiFF_FMs here ;D. I am 409 mod right now and don't think the buttons are updated anymore for this version. If we get updated buttons we might also get P-47s that are 40mph slower or some weird fluke.

 Even though this is a F6F I want to mention I think most if not all US radial single engined fighters seem a little low on the power scale but the F6F seems far more underpowered than the rest. On the other hand unlike others I find the inline engined US fighters just fine.


Thanks again,
                   CW
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Stratodog

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2012, 08:02:47 PM »

CW,

I just had a thought.  Since you are using 4.09 anyway, you should have a UP2.01 install.  It has all of my F6F versions in it and IMO the best combo of FMs to date in any package instal. 

RE: 4.09 buttons; you might find this helpful http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,23404.0.html
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CWatson

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2012, 08:13:18 PM »

Stratodog,

 The link leads to the 9.7 buttons I have. I believe you mentioned in a post above they do not contain your FM.

 I was about to post to ask you a question. I have downloaded these F6Fs:  http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,4666.0.html

 What I was going to ask was, since it shows both stock and F6F mod choices in my drop down menu, why would both F6F-5s use the same FM contained in the buttons? Also at the bottom of the OP for the F6F download ther is also a download for a file named 270B4982B9D3C48C, it is unclear to me what that file is for.

 I will look into the UP2.01 you mentioned.

Thanks again,

           CWatson
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Stratodog

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2012, 08:26:55 PM »

CW,

Those are my Hellcats.  I was unaware that they were available on SAS.  If your list of aircraft includes the versions that say "Mod" then they should use my FM.  Not sure.  Only a speed test would offer an answer. 

For sure the UP2.01 buttons will contain my FM for these same Hellcats.  :)
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FANATIC MODDER

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2012, 04:54:59 AM »

So we have 3 cases that we have a ready-made FM fix for faulty FMs.

 - Bf 109G-6 Early (apply instead of the stock FM the one of Bf 109G-6 Erla)

 - Merlin spitfires - return back to the 4.09m FM

 - F6Fs of stratodog.

PLEASE CirX...That's more than enough reason for a buttons update.
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CWatson

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2012, 12:25:41 PM »

Stratodog,

 It appears the FMs for the Hellcats downloaded from SAS do have a different FM than the stock game planes, if it is your FM I do not know they are a improvement.


I used the hudconfig mod set to true air speed (TAS) because I get a headache converting kmh and IAS speeds,  WEP was used on all planes so equipped. 50% fuel and default armament. All runs on the Okinawa map.

Even with the improved FMs the planes seem  weak at altitude in particular. The stock FMs are just criminal.

 Could you steer me to a source you would consider as a accurate place for the performance of these aircraft? If the FMs below are yours were you happy with the outcome or did you feel the FMs needed further tweaking?

 To me the planes handle and dive fine but the power, or lack of is not what I imagined for these planes. Are the engine types and power modeled wrong in the game? The reason the radial engine US planes, naval ones in particular seem underpowered.  Are the weights accurate?

 I was always under the impression F6Fs were easily 360-370 mph planes. Also I do not think the FMs need to be improved for the sake of game play but for historical accuracy. If the F6Fs were this weak in real life so be it but nothing I have ever read from those who were around them and flew them gave me that impression.

 
F6F-5mod: 330mph TAS 29k ft        F6F-5:  315mph TAS 29k ft
               320mph TAS 20K ft         stock   330mph TAS 20k ft
               345mph TAS SL                        315mph TAS SL

F6F-3mod: 315mph TAS 29k ft       F6F-3 1943 : 275 mph TAS 29k ft
               310mph TAS 20k ft       stock           260 mph TAS 20k ft
               345mph TAS SL                              270 mph TAS SL

F6F-3 Early: 320 mph TAS 29k ft
mod            300 mph TAS 20k ft
                  275 mph TAS SL

 Thanks again,
                    CWatson
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tooslow

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2012, 03:53:15 PM »

CWatson … the references below might help you.

I have found the website below a good source of performance tests of WWII aircraft.

 http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org

Specifically you can find some 1944-1945 tests of Hellcats at the U.S. Naval Air Test Center, Patuxent River, Md. USA below (they show top speeds in the 370-390 mph range)

F6F-3

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-3-42633.pdf
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-3-42633-b.pdf
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-3-41588.pdf


F6F-5

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-5-58310.pdf
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-5-72731.pdf


Also some British tests at Boscombe Down in England

F6F-3 (Hellcat I)

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/fn322.pdf
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/fn360.pdf

F6F-5 (Hellcat II)

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/jv224-b.pdf


Hope this helps … Bob
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Stratodog

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2012, 04:12:50 PM »

Thanks tooslow those are some of the references that I used. 

CW, all I can say is that either your testing method or the FMs are F__cked up because the FMs I developed can go waaay faster than that.  Not sure what's wrong, but the speeds should be very close to what you can find in the posts made by tooslow.

Go to the color chart at the bottom of this page.  http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f.html  My F6Fs should have speeds that reflect that chart.
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tooslow

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2012, 04:46:02 PM »

One more thing …
 
You will find a November 1944 test that put the Zeke 52 against an F6F, F4U, and FM-2 at the the link below:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/ptr-1111.pdf


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CWatson

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2012, 06:09:03 PM »

 Stratodog and Tooslow,

 Thanks for the links. They confirmed the performance I had suspected the real F6F had.

 My testing for the FMs is not perfect but  seems consistent.  I have been able to squeeze out speeds above 400mph for P-38s, P-47Ds and P-51Cs and even BF-109s that lack  trim ability  at altitude. Maybe it is me, if others can match that colored chart speeds linked above with the same aircraft at the download link I posted and use the same version of 9.7 buttons for 4.09, I would like to learn what I am doing wrong on this particular model of aircraft. I am baffled.

 Also if your results are similar  to the speeds I attained it would  interesting to know because I can not figure where a third FM would come from.   Would someone "de-tune" a FM before including them in a buttons file?


Thanks again,
                   CW
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Stratodog

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2012, 08:36:07 PM »

CW, I can confirm that I was able to reach the speeds from the charts in testing.  I used an autopilot (that I can't find anymore damn it) that will hold a specified altitude/heading and you can just add full power and watch it go.  Another important factor is what map is used since they will produce different results.  I used a special test map that has standard temp/pressure.
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CWatson

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2012, 09:11:48 PM »

Stratodog,

 I have no doubt you reached those speeds with your original FMs because you wrote they were comparable to the chart linked. What I was questioning is whether the same FMs you made where in the buttons in question or if the planes were using a third party FM. I do not know how the buttons, FM, plane connect in the game. If your flight model is not in that version of buttons who's are?

That is why I was asking if the planes I got from the download linked above combined with the buttons version also link would result in the designed speed. I was wondering if someone "tweaked" your FMs before allowing them in said buttons. FMs seem to change with buttons change and sometime they appear to get forgotten just as you mentioned your FMs did not make it into DBW.

I would be interested if anyone with the exact downloaded planes and buttons reached the designed speeds.

I have only had time to retest the F6F-5 Mod and the results were the same.


Thanks again,
                  CW
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