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### AuthorTopic: jet fighters  (Read 12284 times)

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• Crashaholic
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##### Re: jet fighters
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2011, 12:25:44 AM »

G'day guys,

Of course if the topic has been moved "Pavel" may not be able to find it and has assumed it's been binned!!

Just thinking out loud (so to speak) not everyone is competent with the search function.

Cheers,

T_T.
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#### Dragon104

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##### Re: jet fighters
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2011, 10:33:41 AM »

I welcome you, colleagues.
I confirm message Pavel_Sergeevich about wrong FM-models MiG-15/17.
My touch by an airplane MiG-17P about 90 hours.
Problems with spin was not.
The reference on MiG-17 Flight manual (Russian):
http://www.aviation.ru/Leonid. Mehanikov/MiG-17_Flight_Manual/contents.htm

Excuse for my English.

Yours faithfully to community
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#### vanir

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##### Re: jet fighters
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2011, 03:59:53 PM »

Yes but the MiG-17 wing sweep, slight length increase and new tail (moving the elevators back from the wings) was to solve that issue. The MiG-17 did not have this issue like the 15, that is the pilot would probably have to try to induce it.
In fact, you can induce this problem on any T-tail if the layout allows you to block airflow over the elevators with your main wings. That's how you do it. And most will with some hard alpha at the wrong time.

The reason the F-104 did it particularly, was the chord was gigantic. You didn't need much alpha to lose your elevator, which induced longitudinal instability. There's plenty of in flight footage of them doing it.

The MiG-15 didn't do it as easily, you need to be at high altitude so you're at a lower IAS compared to TAS. Then you need a little bank, kick some rudder, pull too quick and hard on the stick and there you go, no elevators, flip, no rudder, spin.
But two things should happen for it to occur, you have to be a very high altitude (up near ceiling), and start doing BFM like you're in a dogfight. It'll do the spin, there's F-86 pilot reports on it (chase to high alt, MiG spins, kill recorded without a shot fired), common enough to be either true or a conspiracy. I won't even mention what I think of conspiracy theories.

This was corrected in the MiG-17, it was part of the design requirements. TsAGI says "to correct unsatisfactory factors" (winchester). The RAF dealt with this on their T-tail jets around the same time by moving the elevators a bit forward of the fin. Another way is to play with main wing sweep and moving the wing box in conjunction but that messes with general handling qualities, you can lengthen the vertical stabilizer but you may have structural issues (these love cracking around the base).

There's also a Wright-Patterson report on comparative flight testing of a captured MiG-15, also discusses it.
Once again however, an experienced pilot should never really have this problem. It's just you have to know the plane limitations and enforce them as a pilot, the plane won't tell you and it won't stop you.

US test pilot conclusions was that an inexperienced pilot or someone who panics would have this problem, but it is there to have.
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#### SAS~Anto

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##### Re: jet fighters
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2012, 09:22:14 PM »

US test pilot conclusions was that an inexperienced pilot or someone who panics would have this problem, but it is there to have.

+1 Well said

I've found this MiG-15/17 FM debate quite confusing. This isn't the 1st time there has been one. Whilst this thread insisted that they are too hard to fly and the FMs are totally porked, another thread suggested they weren't porked enough because they didn't include the Valkenzah effect. You can't win!
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#### Ala13_ManOWar

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##### Re: jet fighters
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2012, 06:23:13 AM »

I didn't saw this post before. I'll not enter on MiG FM discussion as I haven't flown any MiG anytime, but to those who have any doubts about Pavel. He really is an Il-2 aerobatic pilot, I know him from lot of time ago, also Raptor and Rock should know him, I have flown with him, and see lots a videos and even some live demo. I can say he knows how to fly mates, may be he haven't a good english because he's russian, and seems a bit rude, but he's not just a novice who don't know what's talking about. That's sure.

A little search would let you see some videos and team web...

http://www.aerobatic-club.ru/

S!
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#### mojojojo

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##### Re: jet fighters
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2012, 06:18:50 AM »

Lol, I remember falling into that very same flat spin once (yes, only once). At the time, I was very inexperienced with the Mig-15 and had treated it like the F-86 (well, I attempted to treat it as such). I was playing online, and literally 20 seconds into the match, I pulled up a little too hard in an attempt to swing over on to an enemy's tail, then bam. Got stuck in a flat spin that I couldn't recover from, all the way down from about 28,000 feet to the ground. Needless to say, I was pretty pissed off.
yes the F-86 was very stable, so if you switch from a saber to a mig, you might find yourself out of control.
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#### BT~wasted

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##### Re: jet fighters
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2012, 10:02:28 AM »

Ive talked with a real pilot and he mentioned that he likes MiG-17 very much. He says that it is the best jet in IL-2.
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#### Roger Smith

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##### Re: jet fighters
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2012, 01:35:04 PM »

Ive talked with a real pilot and he mentioned that he likes MiG-17 very much. He says that it is the best jet in IL-2.
only for the guns and a small top speed difference
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#### BT~Tarik

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##### Re: jet fighters
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2012, 04:55:38 AM »

Its my preferred jet out of the 1956 pack too...if you fly it right then it is a real killer..not only because of guns and top speed difference. I prefer it over any Sabre variant.
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##### Re: jet fighters
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2012, 02:06:35 AM »

this is a simulator of ww2 here have nothing to do MiG -17 and MiG-21
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#### sputnikshock

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##### Re: jet fighters
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2012, 02:12:55 AM »

this is a simulator of ww2 here have nothing to do MiG -17 and MiG-21

??? ??? ???
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#### SAS~Anto

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##### Re: jet fighters
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2012, 08:02:27 AM »

The MiG-17 is a fantastic jet to fly, but you really do have to fly within it's limits.

Personally, I love the CAC Sabre. You can throw it around however you like and always lands on its feet. Plus has a huge reserve of power for when you need it.
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