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Author Topic: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.  (Read 9488 times)

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brat

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Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2011, 06:11:51 AM »

Link here is flight test report for MkV Spitfire and hats off to the FM gurus, they have pretty much nailed these characteristics in the sim but it does not all come together when using a joystick.      http://mitglied.multimania.de/luftwaffe1/aircraft/raf/spit_flying.pdf   See “Lateral Stability and Control” 
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Sorry guys, you can't complain about flight models unless you are using a proper setup.
 
I hear you guys in regard to rudder pedals and I am sure a decent set would be an advantage but that does not help the average player of this sim. I would hazard a guess at no more than 10% of players would be using rudder pedals and with SAS having over 12000 members that’s an awful lot of average guys like me using stock little joysticks, which leads me to also wonder who we are aiming this sim at. It is definitely not to the benefit of the majority if we need to purchase pedals to get any decent realistic flying.
The resolution of a cheaper joystick like mine is not great but a friend with a twist rudder Thrustmaster T-16000, which is claimed to have resolution values over 250 times better than most, still has these stability issues.
.
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Indeed rudder pedals are MUST. My flying skill increased 10-fold after I bought myself a crappy rudder pedals set.
But actually, I also find IL-2 aircrafts somewhat instable. - - -P51B's ball is quite sensitive, it swings like crazy even in the mildest maneuvers
Here are some more comments from different members at the UP site.
* I still believe almost all effects regarding yaw axis are over-modeled.
* I’m always bothered with this tail wagging.
* Yaw effect is unrealistic even in stock game. More intense in high energy planes like P51 ect
* Its the reason I still fly older iL2.
* Adverse yaw is a problem even in stock from day one.
* Gunnery aiming is a sweat in 46 than before.
* Planes taking a while to stabilise after each maneuver.
* There are some basic stability issues in some of the planes.
* Tail wagging has been bothering me and my friends for years.
*  Trying to stabilise for a shot seems challenging.
 It is obvious I am not the only one having problems with the handling side of these new fm's
Even the longitudinal stability poses some problems to me on many aircraft where I get a short pitch oscillation when the elevator is neutralised even after modest deflections.
I have spent many hrs since the new fm's were introduced trying all manner of exponential curves, filtering, dead band and sensitivity settings in my joystick set-up and - - - - Sh#*t, I am a display pilot myself, hold a low level aerobatic rating and I struggle to enjoy the flying in this sim anymore.

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Hawker17

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Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2011, 07:28:49 AM »

I agree with you. Yaw is overdone in this game. Maybe somebody can handle this issue? This issue seems more important to me than the most realistic FM's.

The joystick/rudder pedals will always be the bottleneck (=no feeling), so we will never experience the FM's as they should be. Tuning down controls (for example to 90 in stead of 100) will make life somewhat easier. The "feel" simply is missing.

In FSX for example, we got much more "feel" with the aircraft. However, whatever you fly, whether it is a Cessna or a 737, they all fly pretty much the same.

Combination between IL2 (too hard & somewhat unrealistic controls) and FSX (too easy but pretty good general FM's) should be perfect for me. ;-)

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SAS~Tom2

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Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2011, 07:47:42 AM »

Link here is flight test report for MkV Spitfire and hats off to the FM gurus, they have pretty much nailed these characteristics in the sim but it does not all come together when using a joystick.      http://mitglied.multimania.de/luftwaffe1/aircraft/raf/spit_flying.pdf   See “Lateral Stability and Control” 
Quote
Sorry guys, you can't complain about flight models unless you are using a proper setup.
 
I hear you guys in regard to rudder pedals and I am sure a decent set would be an advantage but that does not help the average player of this sim. I would hazard a guess at no more than 10% of players would be using rudder pedals and with SAS having over 12000 members that’s an awful lot of average guys like me using stock little joysticks, which leads me to also wonder who we are aiming this sim at. It is definitely not to the benefit of the majority if we need to purchase pedals to get any decent realistic flying.
The resolution of a cheaper joystick like mine is not great but a friend with a twist rudder Thrustmaster T-16000, which is claimed to have resolution values over 250 times better than most, still has these stability issues.
.
Quote
Indeed rudder pedals are MUST. My flying skill increased 10-fold after I bought myself a crappy rudder pedals set.
But actually, I also find IL-2 aircrafts somewhat instable. - - -P51B's ball is quite sensitive, it swings like crazy even in the mildest maneuvers
Some past comments from different members at the UP site.
* I still believe almost all effects regarding yaw axis are over-modeled.
* I’m always bothered with this tail wagging.
* Yaw effect is unrealistic even in stock game. More intense in high energy planes like P51 ect
* Its the reason I still fly older iL2.
* Adverse yaw is a problem even in stock from day one.
* Gunnery aiming is a sweat in 46 than before.
* Planes taking a while to stabilise after each maneuver.
* There are some basic stability issues in some of the planes.
* Tail wagging has been bothering me and my friends for years.
*  Trying to stabilise for a shot seems challenging.[/size][/size]
 It is obvious I am not the only one having problems with the handling side of these new fm's
Even the longitudinal stability poses some problems to me on a many aircraft where I get a short pitch oscillation when the elevator is neutralised even after modest deflections.
I have spent many hrs since the new fm's were introduced trying all manner of exponential curves, filtering, dead band and sensitivity settings in my joystick set-up and - - - - Sh#*t, I am a display pilot myself, hold a low level aerobatic rating and I struggle to enjoy the flying in this sim anymore.


Can totally second that for all versions of IL-2 I've flown in the past 8 years.

Tom
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brat

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Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2011, 03:45:53 AM »

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[Posted by: SAS~Anto
« on: July 24, 2011, 01:08:36 AM »
(creating new FMs and then supporting multiple versions of multiple incompatible modpacks) is simply not sustainable and a waste of resources.
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I forgot to mention that I fly DBW and it appears that perhaps CirX would be happy to make some changes.

SAS~CirX About the Ta152H1 « on: July 11, 2011, 09:10:43 PM I have a problem with this plane's FM. I did say that with DBW, I am happy to edit stock flyables. If this mean a re-encryption of buttons that can be done too.
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SAS~Anto

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Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2011, 03:55:40 AM »

Yes for individual aircraft it is possible, but for every aircraft in game? That's a different story ;) We can do these adjustments on a case-by-case basis and if they are seen not to affect pedal uses negatively as well, then they can be included. But otherwise my previous statements stands and I am sure that CirX would support it too.

Also remember that some of these control issues are intentionally modelled. You mentioned pitch oscillations. For the F-86s in particular, that was normal! In the models with hydraulically boosted controls, a counter-weight system would cause such oscillations if the pitch movement was too violent. In addition, the F-86 in straight and level flight naturally oscillates up and down, even with good trimming control (purely a consequence of its design).

So I do not discount what you are saying completely but what you are asking is a huge task (which is to fix yaw settings for all aircraft). If there are any in particular which are bad we can look at it, otherwise it is a damn difficult task.
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brat

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Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2011, 11:17:09 PM »

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but what you are asking is a huge task (which is to fix yaw settings for all aircraft).
  ??? I am certainly not asking for changes in all aircraft allthough there are a lot of Spitfires.
 
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Link here is flight test report for MkV Spitfire and hats off to the FM gurus, they have pretty much nailed these characteristics in the sim       
As you will note from my quote above I am aware that control issues are intentionally modelled and credit is given to those that have studied and applied these characteristics to the masses of aircraft that are now available to us.
Here is a quote from Screwball within another discussion about FMs.which I believe sums up part of the issues in some aircraft 
"Isn't the thrust of this idea to be able to move beyond the 'cold' stats and figures of aircraft, to be able to give us simmers the subjective, personal and immersive feel of flying a particular aircraft? "Accurate" FMs have been available in different sims for a decade plus, and yet it's not controversial to say that FMs have improved immeasurably over this time in terms of giving the sim pilot an ever-closer proxy to the real pilot's experience. The numbers are not the whole story, and those endless arguments on FM threads plainly show that they are far from indisputable. Nobody here has suggested figures be ignored, simply that they alone aren't always enough to really give us the spirit of an aircraft,

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a counter-weight system would cause such oscillations if the pitch movement was too violent.
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I get a short pitch oscillation when the elevator is neutralised even after modest deflections.

I respect all you are saying Anto allthough I believe the basic handling qualities in these areas are over-modelled in some aircraft when flying with a joystick. I have flown a Spitfire and I have many hrs on a Harvard which I must say in the simm is pretty damn good.
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SAS~Anto

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Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2011, 08:44:29 PM »

I'm on your side about modelling FMs for feel as opposed to modelling just for stats. From my end, I can only talk about the FMs which I've had a hand in helping develop and might be able to account for some of these behaviours. Admittedly, without actually flown these aircraft none of us can 100% account for the feel, though pilot reports do help (e.g. the counter-weight system causing oscillations in F-86s). And as you have flown a Spitfire (lucky bastard!) you are more of an authority on how it feels than most of us here.

ANYWAY, now that you have defined the parameters of the problem a bit better, as a first point of call, you are requesting someone adjusts the rudder of the Spitfire series so their is less 'play', correct? AND once they have resolved this, to look at some of the other aircraft in the list?

If that is correct, I apologize if I assumed that this was a request from keyboard and non-pedal flyers to alter all FMs rudder behaviour because it was difficult to fly with an inappropriate flight sim setup! As mentioned, now that the parameters of the problem are defined, someone can look at it properly ;)
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X-Raptor

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Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2011, 11:28:10 AM »

I'm on your side about modelling FMs for feel as opposed to modelling just for stats. From my end, I can only talk about the FMs which I've had a hand in helping develop and might be able to account for some of these behaviours. Admittedly, without actually flown these aircraft none of us can 100% account for the feel, though pilot reports do help (e.g. the counter-weight system causing oscillations in F-86s). And as you have flown a Spitfire (lucky bastard!) you are more of an authority on how it feels than most of us here.

ANYWAY, now that you have defined the parameters of the problem a bit better, as a first point of call, you are requesting someone adjusts the rudder of the Spitfire series so their is less 'play', correct? AND once they have resolved this, to look at some of the other aircraft in the list?

If that is correct, I apologize if I assumed that this was a request from keyboard and non-pedal flyers to alter all FMs rudder behaviour because it was difficult to fly with an inappropriate flight sim setup! As mentioned, now that the parameters of the problem are defined, someone can look at it properly ;)

This is a good starting point to finally have a good FM modder working with a "real" wwII pilot as to adjust the still bad and UNREAL oscillation we all (rudder and joystick users) have flying IL2 series of game ...especially at the moment of firing.
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SAS~Anto

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Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2011, 12:48:24 AM »

This is a good starting point to finally have a good FM modder working with a "real" wwII pilot as to adjust the still bad and UNREAL oscillation we all (rudder and joystick users) have flying IL2 series of game ...especially at the moment of firing.

Especially at the moment of firing? Please correct me if I'm wrong but having re-read the rest of the posts, the issue seems to be related to yaw oscillation when you begin firing, correct? Not just yaw oscillation in general?

If it is the 1st, well surely that would be due to the recoil from the wing weapons. The cannons and MGs on the Spitfire weren't synchronized and in particular with the early cannon models which jammed, it was damn near impossible to hit anything due to the yaw. If you guys can clarify that this is the issue you are talking about, not general yaw oscillation, that would be great.
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spinner

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Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2011, 03:51:47 PM »

I agree with Tom2, my bigger problem is the longitudinal axis where the movement of the joystick results in an over reaction of the elevator. Also trim for this is very difficult and the plane seems to overreact to the input. This is particularly noticeable when trying to line up ground targets. I fly the Spit 8 for the most part but have also noticed this on other Spits.

For me this started in earnest when TD released 4.10. In the release readme they proudly anounced that they had tweeked all the Spitfire FMs. Was that a birthday present to CLOD? No, I'm sure it wasn't but it certainly was no gift to me.

As for keeping the ball centered, I don't know how anyone does it successfully with stick or peddles. There is no sensory feedback to the pilot except for the ball so unless you are constantly looking at the ball to keep it centred (not a good idea in a dog fight) your plane will slip and slide as it wants until you look back at the ball.

Maybe some future sim will incorporate a black bands at the edges of the screen that grow larger the further out of line one gets or shrink to nothing when flying properly aligned.

Twist rudders are useless in my opinion. I turned mine off after a few weeks of frustration. Peddles are an improvement although they are most useful for ground navigation and the occasional re-alignment of the ball when I happen to notice I am flying sideways.

I don't think all the problems mentioned here by Brat and others are merely "accurate" moddeling of flight characteristics or things that shake when you pull the trigger.

We have the luxury of input from Brat, someone who actually flies planes (wow), even a Spitfire (WOW) and he is letting us know that these FM's aren't as freindly as those of the real planes. I'm listening.

Sorry to drone on. I guess if I posted more often, I wouldn't be so long winded.

Long live SAS & UP3 and DBW and IL2

Spinner
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laheugan

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Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2011, 05:44:13 PM »

i have to agree about the the twist sensors being crappy, but for me the pedals are really quite expensive. I actualy have a rudder axis on the back of my throttle, which is a tiny bit better than the twist sensor, but still its not great. My friend has some Saitek pedals and they are very nice compared to twist axis or small axis control
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brat

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Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2011, 01:03:45 AM »

ANYWAY, now that you have defined the parameters of the problem a bit better, as a first point of call, you are requesting someone adjusts the rudder of the Spitfire series so their is less 'play', correct? AND once they have resolved this, to look at some of the other aircraft in the list?

I am not sure what you mean with the term ‘play’
To better understand the problem set yourself up by flying a MkXI Spit or P51D for instance.
Trim for level flight at 200mph (174knts/320kph) Deflect the rudder fully and release the controls. At most you should get one half oscillation before the aeroplane returns to stable flight without any short period oscillations. (See full size flight test report)
In our sim I am finding I am getting a good three quarter oscillation and around three to four short period oscillations before the aircraft settles.
Do the same using elevator, up and down ,and you will notice a strange pronounced ‘bounce’ for want of another word. Couple the two together, elevator and rudder, and you have an aeroplane that is wagging and bobbing all over the sky. Not that we fly with full inputs but this is happening to a large degree with normal flying. It is absolutely impossible to dampen out with a joystick even when the joystick sensitivity settings and maximum throws are reduced, and having flown the TR9 Spit from the back seat last year this is all very unrealistic when compared with the full size.
I have no idea how these fms are created but would imagine that these basic flight stability characteristics would need to be 'softened' somewhat from any full size flight test data to be able to work with a joystick in our sim.
 Any help in taming these matters I am sure would be appreciated by more than a few.
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