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### AuthorTopic: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.  (Read 9487 times)

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#### brat

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##### Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« on: July 23, 2011, 11:09:31 PM »

Spitfires and others --- P40/P51/F6F/F4U/Mosquito/Fury - - - -
I have been playing around for ages with my joystick input under hardware setup and the profiler to calibrate my twist handle Extreme 3D Pro but in the series of oscillations that I am experiencing in IL2 it is hard to tease apart the various interrelated effects. I have only managed to find a small reduction in amplitude and the irregularity of the motion. The linear relationship between yawing and this crazy oscillation has eluded me.
Self having ratings on Tiger Moth, Harvard, Chipmunk to name a few tail draggers and having the good fortune to fly a TR9 Spit from the back seat last year I found it had excellent directional stability and that there was very little oscillation when centering the ball in hard maneuvers.
The aircraft was stable with positive stability characteristics in all axis. However during maneuvers the dynamic and static stability mix nicely towards the negative side which gives a lively feel to the aircrafts nature and does get you looking up sun and feeling for the firing button.
With seat of the pants flying I believe us full size pilots often damp out yaw/pitch oscillations so unconsciously that we are not aware that an oscillation was even starting. Even so, I have never experienced anything like the crazy motions I am now experiencing in our sim.
I am aware that the FM’s are modeled on some very accurate data by some clever people but using a twist grip rudder on a little stick where there is no feedback is so far removed from a full size aircraft when gunnery aiming or balancing the turn result in a very loose aircraft that is so difficult to fly with any sort of accuracy and realism. The old classic iL2 was never this much a problem.
Some people might be happy with these fm’s. Perhaps those with top of the line expensive flight controllers do not have this problem, but for me it just doesn’t work anymore.
I know there are others with similar views from some of the comments on the UP site and if there are other members experiencing the same please post a reply and give us your thoughts.

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#### Wildchild

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##### Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2011, 11:43:11 PM »

+100000 I find it impossible for me to keep the ball in the center even when doing simple turns
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#### CWMV

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##### Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2011, 11:47:14 PM »

Me too, until I got rudder pedals.
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#### SAS~Anto

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##### Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2011, 01:08:36 AM »

Me too, until I got rudder pedals.
+1. Sorry guys, you can't complain about flight models unless you are using a proper setup. I can sympathize with you all as I have been in the same setup (used to crash my 109s almost every time on landing). Most twist sticks are cheap and have crappy sensors. You can always adjust the difficulty settings so you don't have to worry about yaw control.

Honestly the easiest solution is for you to dish out and buy some pedals. This does sound a little high and mighty, but the alternative (creating new FMs and then supporting multiple versions of multiple incompatible modpacks) is simply not sustainable and a waste of resources.
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#### RGA

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##### Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2011, 01:30:08 AM »

Indeed rudder pedals are MUST. My flying skill increased 10-fold after I bought myself a crappy rudder pedals set.
But actually, I also find IL-2 aircrafts somewhat instable. With pedals and trimming I can keep my ball centered most of the time, but keeping it completely standing is next to impossible. Curiously, P-51B's ball is quite sensitive, it swings like crazy even in the mildest maneuvers (perhaps that's why it's placed right before your eyes). On the other hand, P-51D's ball is very stable, never have to look at it during the dogfight, feeling is enough.
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#### Wildchild

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##### Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2011, 01:32:28 AM »

Good point anto. Do you know were I can find an inexpensive set of rudder pedals?
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#### CWMV

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##### Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2011, 01:43:30 AM »

Define cheap.
Got mine for around 60 bucks.
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#### Wildchild

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##### Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2011, 01:47:49 AM »

Let's go for around 30... Budget flyer
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#### CWMV

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##### Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2011, 02:01:11 AM »

Try eBay.
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#### SAS~Tom2

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##### Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2011, 09:00:20 AM »

My 2 cents..
I also use a low-price but very proven Logitech Wingman Ex Dig 3D...have bought it 6-7 times in the last 10 years..since all other sticks I used sucked or had less spring strength and feel.
But twist rudder really sucks with IL-2. A fact.
It works very well with FreeFalcon, modern jet sim, where rudder inputs are basically ironed out above 300 Knots.

But the twist stick will always compromise your inputs in IL-2...
For that reason and since I mainly fly jets...I simply cut off all my rudder inputs from the twist grip in IL-2.
I fly it like a modern jet sim-with as little rudder input as necessary.
This also means totally reinventing your flying skills-when I "customized" this way of flying when first flying Falcon4.0-it was really hard to aim, land and shoot with it.
Once you're accustomed to it-it becomes your 2nd nature.

For a passionate prop-fighter WWII sim pilot, I would recommend dedicated rudders..or at least deactivate rudders from your twist grip joystick in your IL-2 setup ingame and assign them to a key on your stick.-That way you at least have an alternative for emergencies like stalls, spins, landings or battle situations.

If your fun depends on flying WWII- or WWI fighters, I would suggest to buy yourself rudders. Even for modern jet sims they make sense, albeit in RL jets like F-16s and Mirage 2000s would see very limited use of rudders AFAIK.

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#### SAS~Anto

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##### Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2011, 09:41:14 AM »

Well most modern jets have a yaw dampening system which means you only really need that rudder for emergencies, tough dogfights and crosswind landings.

Wildchild:
I've tried 3 of the main rudder pedal sets out on the market and this my opinion on them. You are looking at around US$220 new for most of these (more for G940 system), get them as cheap as$60 second hand.

Saitek ProFlight Pedals
- Decent quality build, comfortable, adjustable to many sizes of feet
- Dead zone was a little large
- Good range of movement

CH Products
- Decent build quality but not adjustable
- Had extreme difficulty tuning this to work with Microsoft Flight Sim but worked okay (if a little too sensitive) in Il-2
- Not my first choice

G940 Pedals
- Very solid build, adjustable friction
- Carpet spikes! With other two, had to use block of wood to stop them sliding to the wall
- Smaller range of movement than Saitek
- Disadvantage is that these only come in set with G940 stick (which is pretty decent for a Logitech joystick)

I personally say go for the Saitek but prices second hand tend to be around US\$150. Sometimes you are lucky like Uwe and will pickup some cheap. I was a poor student (now I'm slightly less poor) and had to sacrifice a fortnights pay for my pedals. Tell you what, despite eating Mee Goreng for a week, the pedals brought a few years of enjoyment
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#### CWMV

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##### Re: Tail wagging. I’m getting frustrated.
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2011, 10:44:24 AM »

Luck had nothing to do with it, just shopped around, but probably easier for us stateside than yall down under.
I'll post up the link at provantage in a dew minutes.
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