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[Riptide_One]

I've found that when I install the angled deck carriers and 00_PAL-Carriers_Temp12, AI behavior is adversely affected. My wingman becomes as much a hazard to me as the enemy. In one mission today, my wingman ignored my order to rejoin. Later as dogfight was beginning, my wingman collided with me and sliced my Hawk 18 in half.

I set up a one-on-one dogfight with the subject mods installed and found that the enemy AI and their planes seemed to have acquired supernatural abilities. Except for a head on pass, there was no way I could get close to them, even when I flew an identical aircraft against a rookie pilot. On one such mission, a rookie pilot sliced my wing in half with his wing. My plane ended up sleeping with the fish and he flew his back to the carrier missing only one aileron. On another mission, I found that my FW-190 could not catch up with a A5M4 even though my airspeed was 260 knots.

After removing the angled deck carriers and 00_PAL-Carriers_Temp12,
I found that these problems go away. So, it seems to me that there is a conflict between DBW AI and the mods in question.

Cheers,

Riptide

[kpn.kardif]

An excellent idea, Whacker.  I ran CWMV's scenario, and came out with similar results.  Also, just to make sure we're using the same qmb, you're using the qmb pro that comes with DBW and enabled through jsgme, right?  Ok, here's some that I ran:

FIGHT 1: F6F-5, 1944 (me) vs KI-84 1a, 1944 (rookie ai), Pacific_Okinawa map, no advantage, 1000m altitude, 50% fuel, default loadouts

Most ridiculous dogfight in the history of aviation.  He's got the faster ride, so he pulls away to gain energy advantage and then back to b and z.  He get's to about .75k from me and breaks off, maybe didn't like his angle?  Hmmm... he dives to gain more energy and tries again, with the same result as the first one.  On and on this goes for close to 10 minutes before I changed tactics and tried creating more space between us and setting up a head on.  Another 5 minutes goes by of me trying to get some sort of shot on him, always with him breaking off before getting within guns range.  Finally got us up to about 4000m altitude before I got him to come close enough for a decent head on and knocked out his controls.  The stupidest thing? He never even bothered to shoot!  Didn't pull the trigger even once!  As long and frustrating as this fight was, I didn't want to try it again with better ai opponents.

FIGHT 2: F4U1-C, 1945 (me) vs KI-84 1a, 1944 (rookie ai), the rest same as fight 1

These two planes are more evenly matched in speed, so rather than running he cuts towards and underneath me.  I dive to the deck and then climb after him, took a shot as he started another dive and missed.  Altitude battle continued, up and down twice more before I got him at the apex of his climb and took his wing off.

FIGHT 3: F4U1-C, 1945 (me) vs A6M5-52, 1943 (rookie ai), the rest same as fight 1

Now things are flipped, I have the speed where he has the agility.  Similar to fight 2, he turns towards and cuts underneath me.  I dive away and extend, then climb for a good altitude advantage.  I turn back towards him and he tries to come up to where I am, is able to just get there before stall.  I turn into the dive with him, get behind him and blow is fuel tank.  Pretty quick fight. 

FIGHT 4: F4U1-C, 1945 (me) vs A6M5-52, 1943 (average ai), the rest same as fight 1

Same start as fight 3.  When he dives after stalling at the apex of his first climb, I get on his six, but he quickly pulls up and I shoot out underneath him.  I continue and extend, climb, and come back at him as he's climbing towards me.  Head on shot exploded him.

FIGHT 5: F4U1-C, 1945 (me) vs A6M5-52, 1943 (veteran ai), the rest same as fight 1

This one was longer than the others.  Same start as fight 3, only he's significantly more aggressive and cuts his turn much shorter and is already coming after me when I turn around after extending.  He takes a pot shot at me as I fly overhead and misses.  I continued to fly straight and level and watched him in my mirror, he was chasing but definitely wasn't as fast as me.  Got about 2.5k distance on him before turning and heading back towards him.  He had no problem coming right at me, I had to break right to avoid him shooting me head on.  Continued the dive and then zoom climb, he tried to climb with me but didn't have the energy and stalled out first.  Got on his six with lead pursuit, anticipating the turn he would make.  He turned right into my cannon rounds, which chopped off his wing. 

FIGHT 6: F4U1-C, 1945 (me) vs A6M5-52, 1943 (ace ai), the rest same as fight 1

Same start as fight 4, so I cut my extension short anticipating him coming at me quicker.  We ended up in a very wide scissor roll, which I knew I would lose if I stuck with it too long.  Shot at him on the second pass and missed, 3rd pass I dove and extended to build my speed back up.  Went into a zoom climb and didn't expect him to be able to follow.  Well, he did... and was on my six.  I dropped flaps and rolled left, he tried to stick with me and overshot.  I pulled back right, which would have put us into another scissor roll had I not taken his wing off on that first pass. 

This was a fun experiment, hopefully it will help you figure out what your issue might be.  Interesting that the carrier mod Riptide mentioned would have such an effect on AI... are you using that same mod, Whacker?  I'm not... so I guess the problem may stem from that or possibly another mod?  In any case, good luck in working it out. 

[Whacker]

That was an OUTSTANDING write up, exactly what I had in mind.  Give me a few days here to recreate those tests and post results.  Going to reinstall a fresh version of DBW 1.71 just to be on the safe side.  I've installed a few mods here or there and lost track of them, as such my JGSME list isn't accurate so I'd like to ensure this is based on a stock install and I know exactly what's in it.

I will be running with a few things enabled, a few of them I need for the game to be playable for me.  The things I do know of off the top of my head aren't really related to flight mechanics.  Most all of it's user interface changes and some gfx goodies... namely the two good FOV mods, 6DOF normalmouse, Missionpro combo, the little effects mod, "light in il2 mod", and some nice textures.  Nothing that touches the flight models or physics in any way at all AFAIK.  I can make a short list if the powers that feel it's necessary.  I do not believe that there were any changes to the AI's behavior over the course of my current install and slowly adding those mods to it.

[Whacker]

Alright, here goes.

FIGHT 1: F6F-5, 1944 (me) vs KI-84 1a, 1944 (rookie ai), Pacific_Okinawa map, no advantage, 1000m altitude, 50% fuel, default loadouts

This is probably one of the longest and most humiliating fights I've ever flown in IL2.  Against a ROOKIE.  Seriously, it was about 20 minutes long.  What I remember was he went high to start, and proceeded to do textbook BnZ against me.  I mean it was perfect.  I couldn't climb with him or anything to save my life, the only mitigation is he didn't have that laser perfect aiming that ace AI has.  There were 2 points where the AI screwed up bad and I managed to pull up behind him less than .2 km, but the first time I was so close to stall I couldn't get a good shot off because the nose was all over the place.  The irony is the 2nd time I got behind him, it was perfect and I ran out of bullets almost instantly.  The rest of the ammo was wasted on snapshot passes.  Half the time I couldn't get the nose up to go after him.  I'd say about 90% of the flight was him BnZing me almost perfectly.  I hit him a few times, once I got a fuel tank, the last few rounds caused some engine smoke.  I dove and ran for my base after that, said hell with it and let the flak shoot him down (which they did).  Seriously, all this against a ROOKIE.  DBW programmers, this is NOT A ROOKIE.  I am nothing near an ace, but I've been flying flight sims for more than a decade and can more than hold my own against an average opponent.

FIGHT 2: F4U1-C, 1945 (me) vs KI-84 1a, 1944 (rookie ai), the rest same as fight 1

MUCH better.  On the pass, I shoot quick and miss.  He pulls hard to get into a long scissors with me, I drop combat flaps and pull to enter the fight and see where it goes.  He turns in and dives for the water, I can't get a bead.  At the end he dives for the water, I lag pursue and follow him down. At the bottom he pulls up and goes for another scissor in, doesn't get the angle he wants, and pulls up hard into a climb.  I continue the lag and follow through the dive, as I start to come out of it I see he' loosing airspeed quick, so I slam it into WEP and 100% pitch.  He starts to slide as airspeed decreases, I follow him through it and .30 out with a good lead pull the trigger.  A few solid hits, last one I see fuel streaming.  Must have caused some good damage because he does a semi-controlled spiral down down down, stalls at the last second and is in the drink.  Took maybe 2-3 min total.

FIGHT 3: F4U1-C, 1945 (me) vs A6M5-52, 1943 (rookie ai), the rest same as fight 1

This one was super quick.  The rookie AI will head straight for you (HE'S COMIN' RIGHT FOR US!!!) and then break left between 1 and .8 or so out.  I put a few rounds into him as he was heading past, went into flames and the pilot bailed.  The flames went out pretty fast though.

FIGHT 4: F4U1-C, 1945 (me) vs A6M5-52, 1943 (average ai), the rest same as fight 1

Land a few rounds off the first pass.  I think it did some decent damage, I noticed bullets on the wing and cowling.  He doesn't try to turn back to engage.  I turn to follow, .30 out he still hasn't moved so I shoot.  See some wing impact.  I think it killed or badly wounded him, because he did a spiral into the water and didn't show any indication of trying to pull out except at the very last second a stall before impacting the water.

FIGHT 5: F4U1-C, 1945 (me) vs A6M5-52, 1943 (veteran ai), the rest same as fight 1

LOL, first time I continued the head on, we both pulled the trigger at the same time.  He ends up hitting me and doing some damage, I nail him and put his engine on fire.  The kicker was we collided on the pass, he took off my right wing and I apparently chopped him in half.  I bailed, switched to view his plane and saw the front half lazily tumbling into the water, engine on fire and prop stopped turning. 

Second time, the game does what I was complaining about.  To start, I did what I call a "barrel slide", since I have no idea if it's got a real name.  About 1.5k out, take them down my left side, throw in some rudder to slide away, and pull into a high barrel roll with them as the center "turning point".  9 times out of 10 they won't shoot at all, or if they do most of the time it's only for a split second.  The faster you are going the better.  He shoots a second but misses.  The rest of the fight is hazy to me, BUT I tried to turn with him a bit to see what he'd doing, he used his turning rate to his advantage but didn't hit me.  I tried to dive and extend, when I looked in the mirror he was about 1.2 away.  Sure enough, he slowly started to catch me.  I got pissed and put it into that lazy climb the AI loves to do, sure enough he slowly caught up.  I tried holding it at recommend 44 MAP and about 2.5kish rpm for military power, he caught up faster.  I put it into 110% wep and 100% pitch and he caught up slower.  Rads were always closed and I was trimmed for speed, but he always caught up.  The rest of the fight was me being pissed and attempting to dive and extend when he got close, I could always get about 1.2 to 1.0 away, but he always, always caught up with me.  Each time I dove to extend he could lead and put a few rounds into me, but I never had any critical systems hit, fuel loss, control loss, or engine damage.  Third time I had to do it I said screw it and dropped combat flaps to try and turn with him a bit more, and then it got real interesting.  Not only did he follow and track me well (and put a few rounds into me), but he would be going so fast he actually passed me in the turns and I would try to turn and shoot because he overshot.  The last time he was turning with me perfectly, shot, and was going so fast at the top of the loop we did he actually dove and got .7 out.  I tried to dip and lag behind but stalled and hit the water.  So much for the Corsair having more energy potential.

FIGHT 6: F4U1-C, 1945 (me) vs A6M5-52, 1943 (ace ai), the rest same as fight 1

This one was going to be a joke, so I used it to experiment a bit.  I did my lil "barrel slide" through, but kept going straight after knowing he'd turn to follow.  So I kept trying to do what the AI does, that crappy shallow turning climb.  Yep, sure enough he started to catch up.  Started to get annoyed again, and I put it into level flight and went for 44 MAP and 2.4k rpm.  Lo and behold, he stopped catching up.  In fact, VERY VERY VERY slowly I pulled away from him.  Like .01k in 30 seconds.  Put it into a very shallow climb and readjusted, and he started to catch up again.  I did this for a bit to see what would happen, and the best I ever got was slowly pulling away at like .01k per 30-40 seconds.  How you guys can BnZ and extend away from the AI, I will never figure out.

[Roger Smith]

F-86K (me) vs 4 Bf-109-B's (Vet) short QMB mission
at first I went head on with him getting a few shots in one but was going too fast. I passed him and he turns maintaining speed and gets enough acceleration to catch up and get pin-point accurate shots into the tail. Engine fail, that's pretty much it.

[SAS~Anto]

Just to clarify, there is no active effort to debug the AI code. There will be no active effort to debug the AI code. The plan is, hopefully, to make use of the 4.11m AI when we possibly switch over over 4.11m.

For most of these 'bugs' that are described, you will probably see them occasionally in default game. I can tell you now I've seen A-20s and Ju-87s dogfight in stock game. There is a degree of randomization in the code, but the great part about Cert's AI mod is that it randomises it even more than stock and removed many of the repetitions seen in stock game.

The issue overall with the AI code is that it is a blanket solution to a case-by-case problem. It will NOT cater properly to each individual aircraft and therefore anomalys will always exist within it.

As for conflict regarding carrier mods, I suggest using the latest AI Engines etc mod (v2.5) I have posted in ModWorx. It contains the carriers mods by BenitoMuso and Western0221.

[BT~Tarik]

There will be no active effort to debug the AI code.

What about the way the AI flies jets ? Cause AFAIK there is nothing like this in the 4.11 AI changes, I guess the AI would fly them the same way it does in 4101...like only circling around at 10k meters at high speed instead of fighting.

[SAS~Anto]

There will be no active effort to debug the AI code.

What about the way the AI flies jets ? Cause AFAIK there is nothing like this in the 4.11 AI changes, I guess the AI would fly them the same way it does in 4101...like only circling around at 10k meters at high speed instead of fighting.

I'm not an expert on AI coding and nor do I have the time to become one. We are simply moving to 4.11m AI because it is better than what we have. As for jets, well if someone is welcome to make the extensive changes to AI behaviour to better support them, they are welcome.

But flying high and fast, and not dogfighting is actually pretty typical of fast jet behaviour in real life! Why engage in a dogfight when you can launch a missile?

[SkyHigh]

"...not an expert on AI coding and nor do I have the time to become one. We are simply moving to 4.11m AI because it is better than what we have. As for jets, well if someone is welcome to make the extensive changes to AI behaviour to better support them, they are welcome."

Milantarik, given what Anto says, just keep a seperate DBW1.71 install for the jets, if you have the disc space.

[Roger Smith]

feels like that 4.101 just came out. I think we're moving too fast, soon all the modders will phase out and then we'll have to have dozens of installs just to use a certain plane in one patch and a map for another and Visual Effects in another etc etc etc etc just because the mods are older

[CWMV]

Well in regard to AI that has already happened.
The guys like Cert and Dfrog aren't around any more, and others have simply stopped working on IL2 AI.
Cant stand still, have to keep moving.

[kpn.kardif]

Whacker, you're fight with the rookie KI-84 stacks up pretty much exactly to what mine was.  Your corsair vs zero fights though... don't know what to tell you, man.  When I go into a dive, get up to 300mph or so and level out and keep steady as she goes, 52map and 2.7k rpm, rad setting at 4.  This setting will have me settle down about 280-290mph, at which a zero at any skill level can't catch me.  Could you maybe save a track and post it here?