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Author Topic: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs  (Read 66522 times)

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CWMV

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #84 on: March 02, 2012, 11:33:01 PM »

But you didn't request anything.

"I wish it was more to my liking" Is pretty much the gist of it.
So what exactly do you think needs to be changed? Honestly I haven't had any issues with it at all. All works fine for me. Ace AI are harder, Rookie are easy kills.
I also haven't noticed the collisions you very briefly mentioned.
Got more details?
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Riptide_One

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #85 on: March 03, 2012, 12:16:52 AM »

CWMV,

If you have not had any problems with the DBW 1.71 AI Mod, then my hat is off to you. You are, in my humble opinion, an exceptional IL-2 pilot.

While DBW 1.71 does provide "Rookie" and "Average" AI skill level options, I have found these options to be much harder than they were in DBW 1.6. So, I am requesting that the Rookie and Average AI levels that we had DBW 1.6 be restored as they were in the current build of DBW.

As for the wingman collisions, all I can tell you is that since DBW 1.71, my wingman has collided with me about 50% of the time.

Cheers,

Riptide
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CWMV

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #86 on: March 03, 2012, 12:25:44 AM »

Thanks, but truth is I'm terrible. Ask Anto he's seen it in virtual person!
Thanks for the clarification, makes a lot of sense.

Is there any constant in the situations where you have collisions? Aircraft? Mission types?
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Riptide_One

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #87 on: March 03, 2012, 01:37:15 AM »

CWMV,

I suspect the truth is that you are modest pilot :).

I think all collisions have happened during dogfights on CAP's or sweeps and the aircraft in question has varied, e.g. P-38, Spitfire, FJ-3M. Once on a F4U-4B strike mission, my wingman went nuts shortly after a carrier takeoff, making a series of close passes at me and flying out of formation. In all cases, ordering AI to rejoin does nothing.

Also, I've noticed that as the wingman passes me, the image of his plane blurs a little as it appears to jerk slightly forward and back until it pulls further away.

Cheers,

Riptide
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SAS~Anto

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #88 on: March 03, 2012, 02:47:08 AM »

The AI difficulty in DBW1.71 is identical to that in DBW1.6 with AI mod enabled. In fact, the AI routines/difficulty hasn't been touched since Cert's final AI mod release ;)
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Riptide_One

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2012, 04:10:11 AM »

Anto,

Thanks for your comments. I suspect that you are in a better position to know what is going on inside the workings of DBW than I. All that I can say is that in 1.6 I didn't see any of the problems with AI that I've seen in 1.71. So, for me,  something changed with DBW AI in built 1.71 and not for the better.

Are you aware of any efforts to debug DBW AI? At this time, I would be happy if only users be given an option to revert back to stock AI?

Cheers,

Riptide
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Whacker

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #90 on: March 03, 2012, 01:14:50 PM »

Just so I'm not giving any wrong impressions either.  In short:

1.  I am just curious why the AI can always pull away from me.  They can't do this in the stock game, HSFX, or UP3.  If I have a plane of equal power and accel, I can stay with them.  Faster, I catch them.  Slower, they run away.  It doesn't work in DBW though, they can always get away unless I'm in a jet.

2.  I don't notice any difference when setting AI strength, would like to see this changed so there's a distinct variance.

3.  I don't really like it how EVERY single AI plane wants to energy fight me.  That's not realistic at all.  Japanese fighters in the pacific knew they had better turn rates and maneuverability, so they tried to force turning fights.  American fighters knew they had better energy fighting methods so they used those.  European theater was a mix and varied depending on the aircraft and timeframe.  In short, I'd like some variety depending on the aircraft.  Watching a japanese zero energy fight me (successfully) when I'm in an F6F is kinda ridiculous, as is the fact I can't catch the zero.
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Riptide_One

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #91 on: March 03, 2012, 05:06:52 PM »

Gerax,

I'll give a "break"/"rejoin" cycle a try. Thanks.

Cheers,

Riptide
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kpn.kardif

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #92 on: March 03, 2012, 11:17:33 PM »

Riptide and Whacker,

Maybe something went fubar during DBW install?  I'm on DBW 1.71 as well, and don't really notice the issues you're describing.  The AI will make good use of it's energy, and will use energy tactics against you if it has an E advantage, but I don't see it creating energy out of nothing.  Try testing in qmb, on Okinawa map with F6F vs Zero.  You will start on his six about 1.5k behind him.  On all AI difficulty settings, he should break left and try and cut underneath you.  If you follow him, it should be pretty easy to get into a turn fight with him.  On rookie, his turns will be lazy and shooting him shouldn't be hard.  On ace, he'll fly to the fullest extent of his ride and will mess you up if you do it wrong.  Now try the same setup, but vs a BF-109.  Rather than breaking and coming underneath you, he should break the opposite direction and pull away from you in an attempt to create an energy advantage and set up a boom and zoom.  He will be successful too, since the 109 is the faster plane.  With equally matched planes, I see the AI doing things like pulling away only if he already has an energy advantage, which he will create if you're not watching carefully. 

Dunno if any of this helps, just my $0.02.
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Riptide_One

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #93 on: March 03, 2012, 11:34:33 PM »

kpn.kardif,

Thanks for your suggestions. I am trying a few things. If all else fails, I'll sound the retreat and go back to 1.6 until things get better :).

Cheers,

Riptide
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Whacker

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #94 on: March 04, 2012, 03:20:49 AM »

Riptide and Whacker,

Maybe something went fubar during DBW install?  I'm on DBW 1.71 as well, and don't really notice the issues you're describing.  The AI will make good use of it's energy, and will use energy tactics against you if it has an E advantage, but I don't see it creating energy out of nothing.  Try testing in qmb, on Okinawa map with F6F vs Zero.  You will start on his six about 1.5k behind him.  On all AI difficulty settings, he should break left and try and cut underneath you.  If you follow him, it should be pretty easy to get into a turn fight with him.  On rookie, his turns will be lazy and shooting him shouldn't be hard.  On ace, he'll fly to the fullest extent of his ride and will mess you up if you do it wrong.  Now try the same setup, but vs a BF-109.  Rather than breaking and coming underneath you, he should break the opposite direction and pull away from you in an attempt to create an energy advantage and set up a boom and zoom.  He will be successful too, since the 109 is the faster plane.  With equally matched planes, I see the AI doing things like pulling away only if he already has an energy advantage, which he will create if you're not watching carefully. 

Dunno if any of this helps, just my $0.02.

Let's try something then.  Set up some scenarios, say 5 or so.  Run them individually and record results and observations immediately after the mission is over.  Be fairly verbose and detailed but don't overdue it, enough to compare notes with some reasonable depth.

Record the EXACT QMB settings you use and repeat them here so I can duplicate them exactly as you did it.  Let's agree up front that they'll all be simple 1v1 quick missions, with no mission/targets or AAA turned on.  I'll need to know:  full map name, starting height, advantage, diff (height), exact aircraft models with full name and year, load out and fuel levels, and AI skill.

I'll re-run the tests just like you did and record results, then post them here so we can compare and discuss.  Sound good?
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CWMV

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #95 on: March 04, 2012, 03:30:54 AM »

Well I just did something similar, here's what I found.

Kuban/3000M/equal/equal/Spitfire MkIX Merlin 61 (me-red) vs Fw-190A-6 (Luftwaffe)/default loadouts/both 50% fuel.

At rookie settings the AI will start to make a head on run, then evade and try to run instead of taking the shot. I climb, reverse, drop onto his 6 and blow him to pieces.

At ace settings he takes a head on shot from about 100 meters and blows me away.
Second time-he takes a head on shot and misses as I evade (erratically). Turns into him BnZ'n me as I climb for altitude. Above 6000 meters Spitfire takes advantage, continue to climb until FW stalls attempting to follow in turn. Drop on his 6, FW evades but eventually takes hits from 20mm's, explodes.

Basic difference-Ace is aggressive and knows how to shoot!
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