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Author Topic: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs  (Read 59008 times)

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CWMV

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #120 on: March 19, 2012, 12:54:47 AM »

Dont get me wrong, Im not part of the team, just conveying what I saw.

"hey my mods dont work now!"

*Several pages of Conf.ini and classfile checking*

"Oh-deactivated AI mod and all is well. Okie-dokie."

Besides I really don't think the rookie AI is all that much harder in DBW. I mean all they ever do is run half the time.
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SkyHigh

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #121 on: March 19, 2012, 03:31:52 AM »

One can always revert to DBW 1.6 for the no-ai-mod option, but the issue is becoming obsolete with the moves to the superior (but harder! :) ) 4.11 ai.
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BT~Tarik

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #122 on: March 19, 2012, 05:08:56 AM »

the superior (but harder! :) ) 4.11 ai.

which cannot be deactivated neither :)

For those who think the AI is hard :

I am sure it is still way easier to fight than a human pilot, just because it still is kinda predictable.

And I guess the goal is to get it as realistic as possible no ? After all this is a SIM not an arcade game.

And yes I am also sometimes frustrated because AI kills me often. But it is only one more reason to train my skills.
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Whacker

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #123 on: March 19, 2012, 11:20:11 AM »

I have absolutely zero objections whatsoever to a harder AI on the proper difficulty settings.  It makes the game much more enjoyable.

The problem is the AI needs to *scale* properly.  Rookies and average pilots don't do perfect, textbook BnZ.
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Riptide_One

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #124 on: March 19, 2012, 09:52:26 PM »

Granted, opinions will vary on the subject, but I think a simulation should provide the user with a wide range of control over the variables simulated. To me, it just seems there is currently a mindset to over compensate for the some players dissatisfaction with the stock AI and that the development of the game moving towards losing meaningful AI skill level scalability.

Yes, IL-2 is a simulation but it is also a game. I believe that IL-2's wide popularity is in part due to the scalability of its AI skill level. So, I think having IL-2 providing options for both challenge and just for fun is worth preserving.

I have not seen 4.11 and for the time being, I don't feel a compelling need to try it.

Cheers,

Riptide
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CWMV

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #125 on: March 19, 2012, 10:37:28 PM »

I have absolutely zero objections whatsoever to a harder AI on the proper difficulty settings.  It makes the game much more enjoyable.

The problem is the AI needs to *scale* properly.  Rookies and average pilots don't do perfect, textbook BnZ.

And they don't here either.

I just ran two scenarios, one Spanish Civil war and one Barbarossa.
I flew an I-15 and then an I-153. Enemy were both 109's (B-2 and an E-7).

In both cases I won. It was pretty easy, just time consuming. In both cases I got the energy advantage on the 109 and cut him to shreds-which wouldn't happen in reality even against a rookie pilot. Remember that even rookie fighter pilots are highly trained killing machines and professionals in their craft.

Honestly though I'm not sure what you want from the rookie settings, to fly level, low and slow right into your gunsite?
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Whacker

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #126 on: March 19, 2012, 11:16:35 PM »

Remember that even rookie fighter pilots are highly trained killing machines and professionals in their craft.

I disagree completely, totally, 100% with this statement.

Rookies are NOT highly trained killing machines, they are one step above cannon fodder.  Witness the decline of both the Luftwaffe pilot quality and the Imperial Japanese pilot quality over the course of the war, as attrition took it's toll and men were given progressively less and less training before being shoved into combat.  The results were telling.  They were certainly not highly trained, or even very skilled killing machines by any means.

My take on the levels.

Rookies represent that lower quality of training.  They can fly, but not that well, and they don't have near as much hand's on time for their aircraft, and zero combat experience.  These are the guys that accelerated stall, maneuver too hard and poorly, don't well understand the concepts of energy fighting, much less how to actually do it.  Flying straight and level is clearly not going to happen, but they should be much easier to sneak up on from a blind spot.  In combat, they waste energy, don't fly "smart", are not be able to keep track of the aircraft health/status and fight well, and make some stupid mistakes.

Average pilots represent just that, the average pilot fresh out of training with a proper amount of time, education, and all around mock combat experience.  Haven't been tried in real combat yet, but they understand their rides and would be far less prone to idiot mistakes.  They both know to be situationally aware and check six, and should be harder to sneak up on.  Real life and death combat will be stressful but their training should be able to help them survive, to a point.  They don't know the tricks of the trade that aren't taught in school.

Veterans have seen combat and lived to tell about it.  They've flown against the different enemy planes and have seen the differences, and know which tactics to use in each encounter.  They know their aircraft very, very well, and can push them to the edge performance-wise.  They don't waste ammo on low prob shots, know when it's proper to energy fight vs turning fight.  They're damn hard to sneak up on and have high awareness.

Aces are the top dogs.  They have multiple kills.  They've flown planes home shot to pieces and held together with threads and a prayer.  They can make their rides dance in the air, pull off complex, risky moves and succeed.  They have eyes on the backs of their heads and seats of their pants.  They can force situations that are advantageous to them and their particular aircraft, and can shoot down lesser pilots with better planes.  They have almost perfect accuracy from various ranges.  Death incarnate, run like hell.


How well IL2 actually models these is up to debate, I think overall it's decent for an AI.  My point is and remains, things need to scale.  When I want to play around, I'll load up bombers with no weaponry.  Toy with stuff?  Rookies or average.  Normal playing?  Veterans.  Challenge?  Aces.  Humiliation?  Human opponents.  Right now, the game doesn't scale well.

There are SOME small differences between the skill levels when it comes to flight patterns in combat and they can be predictable, but it's not that obvious.  To me, the only real deciding factor is the AI's accuracy.  Rookies shoot like crap and rarely.  Averages shoot like crap but more often.  Veterans are a toss up when going head to head, they are accurate enough and you're as likely to get killed as they are.  Aces will shoot your butt out of the sky from +1 km away with their deluxe laser accurate guns.
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CWMV

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #127 on: March 19, 2012, 11:54:53 PM »

Well exempting certain extreme examples your flat wrong.

The Luftwaffe was getting gang banged on all sides, so they are a rare case. Look at the pilots form most other nations, they were well trained. Hell you have to be to get the thing in the air.
many civilians have this idea that warriors are just handed a rifle and told to go kill something. With few exceptions this is wrong. Most governments put much money into training them to be all they can be (guess who I was with eh? lol!).
This goes double for technical MOS's. Pilots have always been an elite class within the armed forces, and have been entitled to and had the best of everything that is availible-training included.
Now sure if were talking Soviet union 1940 or Luftwaffe 1943+ then there you are-an extreme example. Pilots thrown into aircraft with little training with hopes that they might run into an enemy something or other before they die.
But that case is far and away not the norm. Hell look at the same Luftwaffe, but in 1940. Their rookies were probably better than most others.

Now how about the other way round? You want a Luftwaffe rookie from '45 to be a flying retard right? Well should an RAF or USAAF pilot from the same era have the same skills? Most certainly not.
Anyone who climbs into a combat cockpit has had a good deal of trining, and with the exception of extreme examples as cited above and their like they are some of the best trained warriors on the battlefield, rookie or not.
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BT~Tarik

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #128 on: March 20, 2012, 12:05:56 AM »

Must agree on the scles for AI levels, though I dont really experience that myself (flying mostly against Veterans).

Also CWMV talked about Barbarossa and SCW, where the Germans were definitely well trained (still). And there were some quite talented rookies. Experience was lacking, sure but a more or less talented rookie in a superior plane (the 109) should still be a little challenge to down. This is of course not the case in late war, where axis lost both the training and the better-planes advantage.

So if you want it really realistic, then make skills for each side in every part of the war,
like Axis 1941 - Axis 1945.
Allies 1941 - Allies 1945.

Or use 4.11. There are different sub skills in each skill, some rookies are better than others (randomly, would be cool if this was according to date and axis/allies; or is it already?).
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CWMV

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #129 on: March 20, 2012, 01:00:01 AM »

Well ideally thats where 1.8 will get us!
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BT~Tarik

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #130 on: March 20, 2012, 05:53:07 AM »

Yep  :)
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SAS~Anto

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Re: DBW AI Mod Discussion & Bugs
« Reply #131 on: March 24, 2012, 02:38:17 AM »

Re-instating my position on this mod: We plan on moving to 4.11m at some stage and we aren't going to develop AI any further. Not worth the time, effort and stress.

So feel free to discuss AI all you want, but unless some is willing to re-write the entire AI code from scratch, don't expect it to change.
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