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Author Topic: Map of Serbia (part of former Yugoslavia) Unfinished.  (Read 57469 times)

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Uzin

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Re: Map of Serbia (part of former Yugoslavia) Unfinished.
« Reply #96 on: August 08, 2015, 04:28:06 AM »

Your notice is highly appreciated, thank you very much.
As for the populated areas, I made them on the basis ov Avalas original map. It would be nice it you (por anybody else) can provide the maps of april 1941 at best, otr near to that date.
Here is the area of Novi Sad I have now:



Mark freely, please, what to remove.

If you have any other proposal as for which landscape details to add, either in Novi Sad or elsewhere, I would be grateful. But for the time being we must satisfy with frankenobjects. Be aware, however , please, that I do not know to realize all proposals by Il2 game means.
 

EDIT:
Map made flyable, all objects present. See Fw189 ower Beograd and Hurricane over NoviSad:



 
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Radoye

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Re: Map of Serbia (part of former Yugoslavia) Unfinished.
« Reply #97 on: August 08, 2015, 08:01:04 AM »

OK here we go:

I've been searching for a good WW2-era map of Novi Sad for quite a long but am unable to find. However, here's the same area from WW1 - it did not change much in the 30-odd years in between, it only really started to be built up and expanded since 1960's:



You can see how there is nothing behind the Petrovaradin fort, and also the area where the oil refinery today stands is marked as an island and is just swampy wilderness. Also, there is nothing to the west of the railroad (and between the railroad and Danube).

Here is a closer look centered on the city:



The bridge that you have on the map has not yet been built, but there is a pontoon bridge in its place (in fact it was at this location since the 1600's). It has been replaced with a permanent one in 1928. The rail bridge was built in 1833.

Basically, this means that the following area needs to be cleared off the map (marked in yellow):



Here are some details that would be great if possible to add (i did not mark what needs to be removed on these views, i think the above is clear enough):







And some buildings:

Banovina:



The Cathedral on the main square:



The City Hall, viewed from the Cathedral tower:



Please let me know if there is any more info that you'd need, i'll be glad to help!
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Uzin

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Re: Map of Serbia (part of former Yugoslavia) Unfinished.
« Reply #98 on: August 08, 2015, 09:57:05 AM »

Many thanks again !

There is a problem with railway bridge opposite to Petrovaradin fort - the railway there must stop on the right hand side of the river, since we have not the possibility to create workingt tunnels in Il2 game, sorry.

Ther cathedral might be  temporarily replaced by Pilsen one. The City Hall might be also made by frankenobject. There is the question about Banovina Building : really was there soh very modern looking building in 1941 ? It looks like  from Bauhaus school of architecture, doesn't it ?

Do you have any info about direction of Novi Sad airfield runways you marked ?

Any info about the size of other cities like Sabac, Smederevo, Kragulevac, Krajevo at the time before WWII will be greatly appreciated, too. Then it would be possible to decrease populated areas in map further.

Many thanks again for your interest and valuable help in the map making.


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Radoye

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Re: Map of Serbia (part of former Yugoslavia) Unfinished.
« Reply #99 on: August 08, 2015, 10:30:28 AM »

No worries if you can't connect the railroad to the bridge, if it can't be done it can't be done.

Banovina was built in 1930 and it was ultramodern for it's time. It is still one of the symbols of the city.

Of course, i understand the need to use frankenobjects, i posted those photos to kind of give you an idea what the real stuff looks like, so you could easier find the best fit.

You can see the outline of the former airfield here (the site is now military barracks for AD and armored units), the airstrip is long gone...

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Uufflakke

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Re: Map of Serbia (part of former Yugoslavia) Unfinished.
« Reply #100 on: August 08, 2015, 10:44:16 AM »

This image of Novi Sad during WWII might have your interest as well.

http://donauinseln.blogspot.nl/2012/11/danubian-archipelago-on-fire-archive.html





Aerial photo of Kragujevac in 1915


image sharing

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Uzin

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Re: Map of Serbia (part of former Yugoslavia) Unfinished.
« Reply #101 on: August 08, 2015, 02:49:21 PM »

Thanks, Uufflakke !
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Radoye

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Re: Map of Serbia (part of former Yugoslavia) Unfinished.
« Reply #102 on: August 08, 2015, 03:18:12 PM »

Novi Sad, 1944:





Belgrade, location of the civilian / military airfield before and during WW2 (nowadays in the middle of the large urbanized residential area of New Belgrade):







This has been later replaced by separate military (Batajnica) and civilian (Surcin) airfields not far to the north of the original location.

Smederevo 1941:



The city was severely damaged in the first months of the war, the old fortress was being used as a depot for captured war material, and there was an explosion that flattened much of the city causing a great number of casualties.

The above image is one of the rare ones showing the fort, the adjacent railway depot and further in the background the port on the Danube before the disaster.

Here's a modern view of the fort showing its location in relation to the Danube:





You can see where the medieval walls have been breached by the explosion.


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max_thehitman

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Re: Map of Serbia (part of former Yugoslavia) Unfinished.
« Reply #103 on: August 08, 2015, 07:07:28 PM »



Great map Uzin!  8)

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Uufflakke

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Re: Map of Serbia (part of former Yugoslavia) Unfinished.
« Reply #104 on: August 09, 2015, 02:52:02 AM »

Any info about the size of other cities like Sabac, Smederevo, Kragulevac, Krajevo at the time before WWII will be greatly appreciated, too. Then it would be possible to decrease populated areas in map further.

This website contains thousands of picture postcards of Serbia. From around 1900 untill the 60's.
No aerial photos (unfortunately) but some panoramic views are included. At least it gives an indication of the size and buildings of a town.

http://www.delcampe.net/page/category/cat,-2,language,E.html


Smederevo 1930





Kraljeva 1932




Kragujevac



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Uzin

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Re: Map of Serbia (part of former Yugoslavia) Unfinished.
« Reply #105 on: August 09, 2015, 04:34:15 AM »

Hi, friends,
many thanks to your infos on Serbia before WWII.
The Donjo Polje AF at Beograd is appreciated especially, it will be included into the map,
obviously there were concrete runways.
It would be nice to have more aerial photos of Serbian AF prior to WWII,
I believe there might be more technically advanced AF there.
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Radoye

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Re: Map of Serbia (part of former Yugoslavia) Unfinished.
« Reply #106 on: August 09, 2015, 08:20:33 AM »

The Airforce was fairly modern for its time, up to about 1927 it was one of the most modern in Europe (on par with France, if not by numbers then by quality of planes in use), after that it started lagging behind. Of course, it could never measure up to the biggest and strongest ones but it was quite adequate within the immediate region. During the 1930's the country fell unto hard times and so investing into modernization of the armed forces slowed down.

Nevertheless, when the April 1941 invasion came, the Yugoslav Airforce was capable of mustering some 800 first line planes, of which about 300 were of most modern types - Bf 109E-3, Hawker Hurricane IA, Rogozarski IK-3, Bristol Blenheim I, Dornier Do 17K, Savoia SM.79K, Caproni Ca.310, the remainder were older Hawker Fury, Avia BH.33, Ikarus IK-2, Breguet XIX, Potez XXV and others.

In addition to this, there was also a second line aviation which beside Breguet and Potez biplanes also employed pretty much anything that could fly in the country - trainers, civilian types etc. This brought the total strength of the operational arforce to about 1400 planes.

Yugoslav aeronautical industry has produced several domestic types but the most important aspect of it was license production of foreign types. Hawker Hurricanes, Bristol Blenheims and Dornier 17's among other types have been mass produced locally, often with local 'flavor' - small alterations and improvements. There have been interesting projects in development like upgrading Hawker Hurricanes with DB-601A engines, or the B-4 locally designed upgrade of Bristol Blenheim, and some locally designed prototypes - IK-5 heavy fighter/destroyer, Ikarus Orkan fast bomber, Zmaj R-1 bomber, Rogozarski  R-313 reconnaissance bomber...

Having said all of that, what is important to realize is that there were serious political issues in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia at the eve of the war, which made a large part of its armed forces less than eager to fight to defend the country which they perceived as oppressive. If we take this into an account, and with the numerical superiority that the Germans and their allies already had over the Yugoslav Airforce, it is no wander the April invasion ended how it did.

Regarding the airbases, only 2-3 biggest ones had paved airstrips, most of them were grass fields. Especially the small dispersal bases from which the airforce operated in case of war. These usually had only the most basic facilities for refueling and rearming the planes.



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Uzin

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Re: Map of Serbia (part of former Yugoslavia) Unfinished.
« Reply #107 on: August 09, 2015, 11:01:30 AM »

Before reading ab out Yugoslav airbases post of Tadoye, I made frankenobjects in Novi Sad:
Banovina, Cathedral and City Hall, railway bridge going to tunnel through Petrovaradin hill added:



EDIT:
Just a question: which were other AF with paved airstrips, in addtion to that in Beograd, please ?
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