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vanir

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Historical technics adjustments
« on: December 29, 2010, 01:06:24 AM »

Sorry I can only post threads in some boards as a new member so excuse me if this is in the wrong place.

I was putting some of my old mods back into il2, some vehicles and guns in this case (WFlyr "you are very sexy man" is Russian for thanks dude), anyway I'm scrolling down the technics.ini past the AAA stats and I notice hang on, all the effective ceilings on the German AAA is wrong.

Now I understand the lateral ranges (ie. ranges against ground targets) of artillery in IL2 is shortened for game purposes. But the ceilings of the AAA is supposed to be accurate.
Ref. include Encyclopedia of WW2 Weapons, 1998 Aerospace Publishing

So...

FlaK 30 2cm and FlaK 38 2cm are good at 2200m
incidentally the gun series always describes the carriage, machinery and sighting system being used, not the gun which is only described by barrel dimensions although FlaK and PaK will always be lengthy for high projectile velocity so length-calibre is rarely noted (length-calibres are important for KwK or tank guns so operators know how much it was shortened by when being converted from a PaK)

FlaK 18 3.7cm
Actually a really troublesome carriage the FlaK 18 for this gun, they never did quite get it sorted and it never wound up being recalled, just stayed out in service alongside its replacement the FlaK 36. When you see these 3.7cm being mounted on the back of a halftrack or as an SPG, that's a FlaK 36 or 37 mounting (37 was just the late war sights). Anyway the FlaK 18 carriage was heavy, awkward and had a slow (by German standards) traverse. Don't kid yourself about how dangerous this gun was though, they brought down a lot of Allied pilots around airfields and were the standard equip of the Luftwaffe FlaK abt. at company level and SPG-FlaK (SPG and vehicle mounted versions of course use the later carriage).

[Flak18_37mm]
(changes in red)

Ammendment: I have found you cannot change min and max pitch without CTD 70% but other figures are fine. Always back up your files before modification.

// Weapon
Gun                  MachineGunBoforsUS40
AttackMaxDistance    3276.0
AttackMaxRadius      3276.0
AttackMaxHeight      4800.0
HeadYawHalfRange      180.0
GunMinPitch           -5.0
GunStdPitch            45.0
GunMaxPitch           +80.0
HeadMaxYawSpeed        26.0
GunMaxPitchSpeed       48.0
DelayAfterShoot         1.0
ChainfireTime           4.0

FlaK 18 8.8cm
Everybody loves this gun, the "88" but it's actually pretty ordinary as AAA in these early versions, mostly it combined the typical performance of 75mm AAA with a bigger shell for more bang. Its contemporary would be the QF Ordnance 3" AAA used by the BEF.
But being pretty handy (around 5tons in action) AAA of these calibres could be used as extremely effective PaK and the 88 was designed from the start for this dual role, first used against armour in Spain. It was Rommel using it to devastating antitank effect in North Africa that earned the gun its reputation among the Allies, so much so that American troops at Normandy identified every field howitzer they came across as "88s" seriously it's on record.

The really impressive German FlaK was the 10.5cm with several thousand made so this was really the main heavy AAA from 1942 onwards, but it wasn't very mobile or handy. Basically most static emplacements or rail mountings had them, the old 88 remained in field units.

[Flak18_88mm]

// Weapon
Gun                  CannonFlak18_88mm
AttackMaxDistance    5000.0
AttackMaxRadius      5000.0
AttackMaxHeight      8000.0
HeadYawHalfRange      180.0
GunMinPitch            -5.0
GunStdPitch            45.0
GunMaxPitch           +85.0
HeadMaxYawSpeed        10.0
GunMaxPitchSpeed        4.0
DelayAfterShoot         3.0
ChainfireTime             0


small calibre AA
I've no idea why IL2 offers effective range/altitude of 1.6km for light calibre guns like the ShKAS, you'd need a radar director to get that. A guy with a peashooter firing at aircraft from the ground, you're talking like 2-300m or else you're just doing it to make youself feel better. With a heavy calibre MG like a 50cal or one of those Russian antitank rifles they started using as AAA at Stalingrad, 6-700m tops. Against ground targets maybe 1-2km if you can lay down plenty of shells, but firing upwards, against a metal target moving at 4-600km/h with turbulence and wind and birds squawking and rats crawling over your toes and the sun in your eyes forget it.
I'm going to leave it though and just consider it a game quirk.


Zenit 72-K 25mm AAA
No way this gun has worse performance than a Hotchkiss. Sure the carriage is a joke but the gun is sound. No way this carriage has the traverse of the FlaK 36. These points are just technical logic.

[Zenit25mm_1940]

// Weapon
Gun                  MachineGunZenit25mm_1940
AttackMaxDistance    2000.0
AttackMaxRadius      2000.0
AttackMaxHeight      3000.0
HeadYawHalfRange      180.0
GunMinPitch           -10.0
GunStdPitch            45.0
GunMaxPitch           +82.0
HeadMaxYawSpeed        28.0
GunMaxPitchSpeed       15.0
DelayAfterShoot         2.2
ChainfireTime           5.5


JA Type 98 20mm AAA
Who'd have thunk I actually have detailed entries on this specific gun, very underrated by IL2, the author of its article calls it "extremely deceptive appearance and a thoroughly modern weapon with good performance"
Was carried into action by a 2-3 man crew you know and setup within 3 minutes. The reason it was such an unusually hard hitter for a 20mm was because its ammunition was based on antitank guns of this calibre, firing a shell 15% heavier than something like an Oerlikon at easily the same muzzle velocity.

[Type98_20mm_JA]

// Weapon
Gun                  MachineGunFlak30_20mm
AttackMaxDistance    2200.0
AttackMaxRadius      2200.0
AttackMaxHeight      3650.0
HeadYawHalfRange      180.0
GunMinPitch            -5.0
GunStdPitch            45.0
GunMaxPitch           +85.0
HeadMaxYawSpeed        45.0
GunMaxPitchSpeed       18.0
DelayAfterShoot         2.2
ChainfireTime           5.5
FireFastTargets           1



Well that'll do for now. Might check through others another time.
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asheshouse

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Re: Historical technics adjustments
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2010, 03:44:38 AM »

In my opinion you should not use max ranges for small calibre AA weapons. This is bad for FPS. A better approach is to use "effective" ranges. This is possibly more realistic and cuts down the processing load on the game engine.

The visual effect in the game is a much more "layered" defence with only heavy AA being encountered at higher altitudes and small calibre AA coming into action only as you dive on the target.

Ashe
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vanir

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Re: Historical technics adjustments
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2010, 06:43:37 AM »

You bring up a good point Ashe, I'll have to playtest but where using the increased RAM allocation il2fb.exe I can't see a dramatic issue so long as one is using the same kind of proportion placing ground units as they do aircraft. It's not going to hurt FPS any more having more historical ceilings than it would with the same amount of AAA placed and where you happen to be flying lower, so it's really a matter of how many AAA you're placing in the FMB.

For example, for game purposes we essentially raise the tier for FMB placements so that where say a historical scramble might've involved four Squadrons from two airfields and and at least forty interceptors, what we'd do in IL2 making that mission is scramble four Schwarm from two airfields for a total of 16 interceptors and you still get that feel of a sky just full of aircraft without the FPS kill.

By the same measure you'd use one FlaK for every batterie allocation, or one batterie for every Abteilung, for game purposes to get the same effect and feel of the historical mission represented in the sim. Intead of having a batterie of FlaK at a forward field you have one FlaK. Instead of one Abteilung plus a local heavy FlaK regimental Abt. at a major airbase, you have one batterie of four FlaK placed around the base and one batterie of heavy FlaK within 5km. That keeps things proportionate to the aircraft placement used for game purposes and gives pilots a fighting chance even though all sorts of guns are going to be firing at you at combat heights when you go anywhere near airfields or major targets.

This is a more realistic feel IMHO and I'd really like to approach that if at all possible. I don't like the generic philosophy of AAA placement between the various nations because each of them were very different in their artillery capabilities and we should really see that in game.
It's a whole different thing for a German bird to avoid Soviet FlaK than an American bird to avoid German FlaK.

The 10.5cm FlaK aside (I really hope someone does a Mod to bring this gun into the game, it has a 13km ceiling), when flying over German field Flak units Allied aircraft are basically immune so long as they stay above 8km which is coincidentally about the height tactical reconnaissance tended to fly. It is however at the very service ceiling of most bombers and higher than most can manage loaded up. But it does say that it's possible to climb above even heavy FlaK in outlying positions.
The Soviet 85mm however is a completely different kettle of fish and is one of the best AAA in its class, you aren't going to climb out of its range.

By the same measure German medium calibre AAA was painstakingly developed and the entire object was taking down enemy fighters at combat heights. The standard gun for the Luftwaffe FlaK was the 3.7cm, often in tracked SPG mounts so they could double as a makeshift field support weapon for security forces, and they were regarded with alarm by Allied pilots as they began attacking airfields after Normandy. A great many were shot down by these fast tracking PomPoms and yes they would most certainly shoot you down from combat heights, before the dive.

The Army of course used almost exclusively 2cm in the medium calibre FlaK role, but also often in SPG and doubling as field support weapons if units are being overrun.

So this historical point matter of having a very different experience if you're going to attack a troop concentration or armour, from when you go attacking an airfield I think helps the game experience.

It's the same kind of story with the Japanese AAA who really only had heavy FlaK at major bases, but have an unusual benefit with a very light, small AAA that has a great ceiling. Truth was historically you could get shot down at combat height flying right over rough forest without a proper AAA emplacement in sight and that was the beauty of the Type 98 20mm. Technologically the Japanese pretty much get shafted in just about every other area.

But then in terms of the Soviets they had fantastic guns on totally outdated carriages that made actually using them cumbersome.

The idea of historical detail is really to provide the genuine feeling of requiring different tactics depending on whose AAA you're facing.
Part of the reason I left lateral ranges as they are though still means that AAA isn't going to start firing until you're the same distance from it across the map, it's just that you're going to have a more historical experience about effective altitudes. And make no mistake the ceilings listed for AAA in documentation are their effective ranges, they'll kill aircraft at those altitudes without trouble.
"Effective range" starts to get dramatic against armour, the 88 will kill aircraft at 8km alt (or about 12km distant) but if you want to take out an IS-2 with an AP shell it's more like 1km "effective" range against that target.
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vanir

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Re: Historical technics adjustments
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2010, 03:52:47 PM »

Some more adjustments...

Japanese Type 88 75mm FlaK
Ceiling for this gun was too high. It was copied from several designs of the 1920s and had such poor performance B-29s operating at high altitude were out of reach. This is the ceiling listed.

// Weapon
Gun                  CannonJA_75_Type88
AttackMaxDistance    5000.0
AttackMaxRadius      5000.0
AttackMaxHeight      7250.0
HeadYawHalfRange      180.0
GunMinPitch            -5.0
GunStdPitch            45.0
GunMaxPitch           +85.0
HeadMaxYawSpeed        10.0
GunMaxPitchSpeed        4.0
DelayAfterShoot         3.0
ChainfireTime             0
FireFastTargets           1


Under SPG AA

SdKfz6 FlaK 37
The FlaK 36 has a much better carriage and faster traverse than the FlaK 18 version, FlaK 37 has newer clockwork lead sights but they were complicated to operate.

// Weapon
Gun                  MachineGunBoforsUS40
NumShells            800
AttackMaxDistance    3276.0
AttackMaxRadius      3276.0
AttackMaxHeight      4800.0
HeadYawHalfRange      180.0
GunMinPitch            -5.0
GunStdPitch             0.0
GunMaxPitch           +80.0
HeadMaxYawSpeed        52.0
GunMaxPitchSpeed       48.0
DelayAfterShoot         1.0
ChainfireTime           4.0


Coelian (FlaKzwilling 3.7cm)

// Weapon
Gun                  MachineGunBoforsUS40
NumShells            800
AttackMaxDistance    3276.0
AttackMaxRadius      3276.0
AttackMaxHeight      4800.0
HeadYawHalfRange      180.0
GunMinPitch            -5.0
GunStdPitch             0.0
GunMaxPitch           +85.0
HeadMaxYawSpeed        52.0
GunMaxPitchSpeed       48.0
DelayAfterShoot         1.0
ChainfireTime           4.0


Zis-5 AA 25mm

// Weapon
Gun                MachineGunZenit25mm_1940
NumShells          5000
AttackMaxDistance    2200.0
AttackMaxRadius      2200.0
AttackMaxHeight      3000.0
HeadYawHalfRange      180.0
GunMinPitch           +25.0
GunStdPitch           +26.0
GunMaxPitch           +85.0
HeadMaxYawSpeed        38.0   // ??
GunMaxPitchSpeed       15.0   // ??
DelayAfterShoot         2.2
ChainfireTime           6.5


under special artillery

Nebelwerfer 15cm WfGr41
The range capabilities of these rockets was overstated.

// Weapon
Gun                CannonRocketSimpleRS150
NumShells          5000
AttackMaxDistance    6900.0
AttackMaxRadius      6900.0

AttackMaxHeight       500.0
HeadYawHalfRange      180.0
GunMinPitch            -5.0
GunStdPitch           +20.0
GunMaxPitch           +44.0
HeadMaxYawSpeed         3.0   // ??
GunMaxPitchSpeed        3.0   // ??
DelayAfterShoot        20.0
ChainfireTime           9.0
FastTargetsAngleError  20.0


Katyusha
The range capabilities of these rockets was understated. Basically these and the Nebelwerfer were the wrong way around.

// Weapon
Gun                CannonRocketSimpleRS132
NumShells          5000
AttackMaxDistance    8500.0
AttackMaxRadius      8500.0

AttackMaxHeight      1000.0
HeadYawHalfRange       10.0
GunMinPitch            -5.0
GunStdPitch            15.0
GunMaxPitch           +44.0
HeadMaxYawSpeed        12.0   // ??
GunMaxPitchSpeed       12.0   // ??
DelayAfterShoot        30.0
ChainfireTime          10.0
FastTargetsAngleError  20.0


I have no idea why there is a separate rocket projectile class for the RS132 and M-13 (studebaker katy), because the M-13 is the designation of the RS132 Katy.
I'm going to leave the Studebaker at its understated ranges because of this, but it should be identical to the Russian Katy unless it is an M-30/31 which uses very heavy 300mm rockets.
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