Special Aircraft Service

Individual Mod Downloads for IL-2 1946 => Aircraft => Japan_Singles => Topic started by: greybeard on October 20, 2015, 06:57:01 AM

Title: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: greybeard on October 20, 2015, 06:57:01 AM
Hi guys!

(http://i59.tinypic.com/14dh5p0.jpg)

From Readme: "Modeled Ki-44-II subtypes Ko, Otsu and Hei with their historical armament and loadouts.
It improves historical accuracy of armament and loadouts, setting them respectively as follows: Armament * Ko: two 7.7 mm Type 89 machine guns (synchronized) firing through the propeller with 500 r.p.g. and two 12.7 mm Ho-103 machine guns in the wings with 250 r.p.g. * Otsu: two 12.7 mm Ho-103 machine guns (synchronized) firing through the propeller with 250 r.p.g.. Provisions for two 40 mm Ho-301 cannons in the wings with 10 r.p.g. *Hei: two 12.7 mm Ho-103 machine guns (synchronized) firing through the propeller with 250 r.p.g. and two 12.7 mm Ho-103 machine guns in the wings with 250 r.p.g.. Loadouts * All Ki-44-II models: either two 30-50-100 kg bombs or two 130L drop tanks.

A special mention deserves the Ho-301 40 mm cannon, using caseless ammunition.
Its muzzle velocity was reduced to 220 m/s and rate of fire increased to 400 rounds/min, as historical.


FYI, muzzle velocity was 240 m/s and rate of fire 150 rounds/min. Actually, sources are contradictory and figures respectively vary from 220 to 246 and from 400 to 475; we trusted in Japanese Wikipedia, being probably other sources derived from Allied tests, instead of genuine ones.

Also with "only" 400 rounds per minute, you'll empty your magazine in 1.5 seconds! :o So, choose carefully your target and aim accurately! :D

Default version of Otsu has been correctly modeled without any wing weapon:

(http://i60.tinypic.com/jjxjxy.jpg)

and eventually Hei got its historical reflector gunsight!

(http://s4.postimg.cc/vv03wjmjx/Wx_Tech_Ki_43_II_KAI_gunsight.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

Tested successfully only with 4.09 + UP2.01! It shouldn't have compatibility issues with any ModAct environment, though, if any other Ki-44-II has been installed. For same reason, modpacks like DBW or HSFX, containing by default Tainan's Ki-44 (IIRC), could cause troubles if this pack is installed. Any feedback would be highly welcomed! ;)

CREDITS
-JapanCat for the original 3D model
-Misfit for adding plane and cockpit initial models
-Vampire_Pilot for final early version
-PA_Jeronimo for engine and prop fixes
-CWatson for corrected loadouts of early version
-PA_Jeronimo for modeling 40 mm cannon barrel and fairing and for Hei tube gunsight removal
-Spitwulf for bomb pylons repositioning, Hei reflector gunsight setting and Ho-301 revised specification

Link for download (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads3&file=details&id=1670)

Have fun!

P.S.: please add the following lines to the files specified.
Code: [Select]
*********
*AIR.INI*
*********
Ki-44-II-Ko       air.KI_44_IIKO 2                      NOINFO  ja01  SUMMER
Ki-44-II-Otsu     air.KI_44_IIOTSU 2                    NOINFO  ja01  SUMMER
Ki-44-II-Otsu_Late     air.KI_44_IIOTSU_LATE 2          NOINFO  ja01  SUMMER
Ki-44-II-Hei      air.KI_44_IIHEI 2                     NOINFO  ja01  SUMMER


*********************
*PLANE_RU.PROPERTIES*
*********************
Ki-44-II-Ko          Ki-44-IIKo 'Shoki', 1942
Ki-44-II-Otsu      Ki-44-IIOtsu 'Shoki', 1943
Ki-44-II-Otsu_Late      Ki-44-IIOtsu 'Shoki', 1943
Ki-44-II-Hei      Ki-44-IIHei 'Shoki', 1944


***********************
*WEAPONS_RU.PROPERTIES*
***********************
######################################################################
# Ki-44-II-Ko
#####################################################################
Ki-44-II-Ko.default                      Default
Ki-44-II-Ko.2x100kg                      2 x 100kg. Bombs
Ki-44-II-Ko.2x50kg                       2 x 50kg. Bombs
Ki-44-II-Ko.2x30kg                       2 x 30kg. Bombs
Ki-44-II-Ko.2xDpt                    2xDroptank(130L)
Ki-44-II-Ko.none                         Empty

######################################################################
# Ki-44-II-Otsu
#####################################################################
Ki-44-II-Otsu.default                    Default
Ki-44-II-Otsu.2xMG_2x40mm 2x40mm extra wing cannons
Ki-44-II-Otsu.2x100kg                    2 x 100kg. Bombs
Ki-44-II-Otsu.2x50kg                     2 x 50kg. Bombs
Ki-44-II-Otsu.2x30kg                     2 x 30kg. Bombs
Ki-44-II-Otsu.2xDpt                    2xDroptank(130L)
Ki-44-II-Otsu.none                       Empty

######################################################################
# Ki-44-II-Otsu_Late
#####################################################################
Ki-44-II-Otsu_Late.default               Default
Ki-44-II-Otsu_Late.2x100kg               2 x 100kg. Bombs
Ki-44-II-Otsu_Late.2x50kg                2 x 50kg. Bombs
Ki-44-II-Otsu_Late.2x30kg                2 x 30kg. Bombs
Ki-44-II-Otsu_Late.2xDpt                 2xDroptank(130L)
Ki-44-II-Otsu_Late.none                  Empty

######################################################################
# Ki-44-II-Hei
#####################################################################
Ki-44-II-Hei.default                     Default
Ki-44-II-Hei.2x100kg                2 x 100kg. Bombs
Ki-44-II-Hei.2x50kg                2 x 50kg. Bombs
Ki-44-II-Hei.2x30kg                2 x 30kg. Bombs
Ki-44-II-Hei.2xDpt                  2xDroptank(130L)
Ki-44-II-Hei.none                        Empty


Patch for "Privateers" (4.10.1+UP3/DBW): please see Reply #32


Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09]
Post by: SAS~Epervier on October 20, 2015, 07:10:14 AM
Thank you very much !  :) :)

(http://gvla.perso.neuf.fr/Img_forum/409_forever.gif)
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09]
Post by: greybeard on October 20, 2015, 07:24:32 AM
You are welcome! ;)
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09]
Post by: GUZKNIFE on October 20, 2015, 10:49:16 AM
Works in 4.12.2 SAS ModAct 5.30 :) Thank you!
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09]
Post by: Spitwulf on October 20, 2015, 10:52:02 AM
Hi guys!

I'm working on a patch to improve compatibility with "stock" DBW Ki-44 (mainly the Ko version). For now you can install this pack in DBW with some issue only on Ki-44-II-Ko (double loadout entries and bombs/pylons error in bombs+droptanks loadout).

Note: you need to disable hidden Ki-44s for DBW *v2.0* mod from Vampire_Pilot, if installed, in order to avoid incompatibility issue.

Bye!
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09]
Post by: SAS~Storebror on October 20, 2015, 10:57:08 AM
Great mod, thanks a lot greybeard and all other involved!

Best regards - Mike
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09]
Post by: greybeard on October 20, 2015, 12:25:45 PM
Works in 4.12.2 SAS ModAct 5.30 :) Thank you!

Thank you so much! :)

Tag updated!
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack
Post by: urmel on October 20, 2015, 01:18:03 PM
Thnks greybeard
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack
Post by: Fly! on October 20, 2015, 01:18:49 PM
Thanks GB, 4 the improvements esp. the 40mm ROF
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09][4.12.2+SAS ModAct 5.30]
Post by: Docholiday on October 20, 2015, 01:48:11 PM
WOW !!


Great work !


Thank You ALL.


Doc
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09][4.12.2+SAS ModAct 5.30]
Post by: crimar on October 20, 2015, 02:21:54 PM
Works in my 4.09 !
Thank you very much !  :)

Cheers.
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack
Post by: Paulo Hirth on October 20, 2015, 04:47:20 PM
    Very nice!  Please, is there a way to copy and paste from a PDF file? Can any friend post here the air ini, planes.ru and wepows.ru?
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09][4.12.2+SAS ModAct 5.30]
Post by: tarakanz on October 20, 2015, 04:52:06 PM
Cockpit Ki-44-II-hei don't work.

Flight Model File FlightModels/Ki-44-II.fmd contains no Mach Drag Parameters.
INTERNAL ERROR: Can't open file '3DO/Cockpit/Ki-43-II/T3Reticle2_NEW.tga'
WARNING: object '3DO/Cockpit/Ki-43-II/T3Reticle2_NEW.tga' of class 'TTexture2D' not loaded
INTERNAL ERROR: Texture required
WARNING: object '3DO/Cockpit/Ki-44-II-hei/T3Reticle.mat' of class 'TMaterial' not loaded
INTERNAL ERROR: Material: Can't load 'T3Reticle.mat'
INTERNAL ERROR: Material: Can't load 'T3Reticle.mat'

java.lang.RuntimeException: INTERNAL ERROR: Material: Can't load 'T3Reticle.mat'

   at com.maddox.il2.engine.HierMesh.Load(Native Method)
   at com.maddox.il2.engine.HierMesh.<init>(HierMesh.java:596)
   at com.maddox.il2.objects.air.Cockpit.<init>(Cockpit.java:912)
   at com.maddox.il2.objects.air.CockpitPilot.<init>(CockpitPilot.java:319)
   at com.maddox.il2.objects.air.CockpitKI_44_II_hei.<init>(CockpitKI_44_II_hei.java:107)
   at java.lang.Class.newInstance0(Native Method)
   at java.lang.Class.newInstance(Unknown Source)
   at com.maddox.il2.objects.air.Aircraft.createCockpits(Aircraft.java:3199)
   at com.maddox.il2.objects.air.Aircraft.load(Aircraft.java:2548)
   at com.maddox.il2.game.Mission.loadAir(Mission.java:1583)
   at com.maddox.il2.ai.Wing.load(Wing.java:145)
   at com.maddox.il2.game.Mission.loadWings(Mission.java:1302)
   at com.maddox.il2.game.Mission._load(Mission.java:701)
   at com.maddox.il2.game.Mission.access$6(Mission.java:670)
   at com.maddox.il2.game.Mission$BackgroundLoader.run(Mission.java:323)
   at com.maddox.rts.BackgroundTask.doRun(BackgroundTask.java:155)
   at com.maddox.il2.game.MainWin3D.loopApp(MainWin3D.java:108)
   at com.maddox.il2.game.Main.exec(Main.java:456)
   at com.maddox.il2.game.GameWin3D.main(GameWin3D.java:235)
ObjState.finalize: Object of com.maddox.il2.objects.air.CockpitKI_44_II_hei NOT destroyed
1>mp_dotrange FRIENDLY   DOT 14.000001 COLOR 6.0000005 RANGE 6.0000005 TYPE 6.0000005 ID 6.0000005 NAME 6.0000005 ALTICON 0.1 ALTSYMBOL + ALTCOLOR 0
1>mp_dotrange FOE  DOT 14.000001 COLOR 6.0000005 RANGE 6.0000005 TYPE 6.0000005 ID 6.0000005 NAME 6.0000005 ALTICON 0.1 ALTSYMBOL + ALTCOLOR 0
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09][4.12.2+SAS ModAct 5.30]
Post by: Spitwulf on October 20, 2015, 05:21:47 PM
tarakanz

Go to 3do\Cockpit\Ki-44-II-hei and open T3Reticle.mat with the notepad.

Scroll until this section

[Layer0]
  TextureName ../Ki-43-II/T3Reticle2_NEW.tga


and change this line from TextureName ../Ki-43-II/T3Reticle2_NEW.tga to TextureName ../Ki-44-II-hei/T3Reticle2_NEW.tga

ADDENDA

if you have problem with glass.mat

Go to 3do\Cockpit\Ki-44-II-hei and open glass.mat

change this line from TextureName ../A6M2/Glass.tga to TextureName ../Ki-44-II-hei/Glass.tga

Sorry, my fault...  :-[
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09][4.12.2+SAS ModAct 5.30]
Post by: tarakanz on October 20, 2015, 05:42:44 PM
tarakanz

Go to 3do\Cockpit\Ki-44-II-hei and open T3Reticle.mat with the notepad.

Scroll until this section

[Layer0]
  TextureName ../Ki-43-II/T3Reticle2_NEW.tga


and change this line from TextureName ../Ki-43-II/T3Reticle2_NEW.tga to TextureName ../Ki-44-II-hei/T3Reticle2_NEW.tga

ADDENDA

if you have problem with glass.mat

Go to 3do\Cockpit\Ki-44-II-hei and open glass.mat

change this line from TextureName ../A6M2/Glass.tga to TextureName ../Ki-44-II-hei/Glass.tga

Sorry, my fault...  :-[

nothing wrong. I have problem with T3Reticle2_NEW.tga . I changed frome T3Reticle.mat : TextureName ../Ki-44-II-hei/T3Reticle2_NEW.tga to TextureName  T3Reticle2_NEW.tga and it worked  ;)
worked in 4.13 & modact 6.01
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09][4.12.2+SAS ModAct 5.30]
Post by: Spitwulf on October 20, 2015, 05:49:46 PM
Good tarakanz!

This is a little "emergency patch" to avoid the issue: http://www.mediafire.com/download/bzvm4fay8rwsbw3/Gunsight_Fix.rar

unzip and copy into 3do/Cockpit/Ki-44-II-hei folder. Overwrite if requested.

Sorry again guys!  :-[
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack
Post by: Peter Lynn on October 20, 2015, 07:07:00 PM
Great work, thank you greybeard!

Peter Lynn
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09][4.12.2+SAS ModAct 5.30]
Post by: WWII44 on October 20, 2015, 08:35:56 PM
I fell in love with this ugly duckling of a fighter plane after I read a book by Dean Ing where a group of retired pilots find at least four of them in perfect flying condition hidden on a remote island in the South Pacific. Great to see it in IL-2.
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09][4.12.2+SAS ModAct 5.30]
Post by: greybeard on October 21, 2015, 02:00:58 AM
Hi guys!

The new pack containing the fix for Hei cockpit has been uploaded at M4T, replacing previous one with same file name. See first post for link.

Sorry for inconvenience.
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09][4.12.2+SAS ModAct 5.30][4.13 + modact 6.01]
Post by: greybeard on October 21, 2015, 02:11:46 AM
tarakanz

Thanks a lot for all the feedback! :)

Tag added!
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack
Post by: greybeard on October 21, 2015, 02:20:03 AM
Can any friend post here the air ini, planes.ru and wepows.ru?

Added at bottom of first post. Let me know if you've still problems.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09][4.12.2+SAS ModAct 5.30]
Post by: greybeard on October 21, 2015, 02:30:43 AM
... I read a book by Dean Ing where a group of retired pilots fine at least four of them in perfect flying condition hidden on a remote Island in the South Pacific.

If recent, this would be great news! So far, I was aware of only one Shoki which survived the war, being scrapped after short exposition to the public. Finally, we would have some examples to watch in museums! :)
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: WWII44 on October 21, 2015, 10:54:47 AM
Unfortunately the book in question(called Flying to Pieces) was a work of fiction none the less it was a good read. the Also found a Betty and Ohka with the Shokis, all had been kept in perfect flying condition for over 40 or so years by a single Japanese holdout(which is initially why I looked into the book)
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: SAS~Tom2 on October 21, 2015, 11:29:29 AM
Thanks chaps, will try in my 4.09m install. And or 4.12.  :-*

Cheers

Tom
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: Knochenlutscher on October 21, 2015, 01:20:42 PM
Works in my DBW, the Hei and it's new cannons are cheerfull. Precise and punching. Gunsight is awesome.
It's a "Killer" now.  8)
I have accidently left the Ki-44s in sfs and apart from that my DBW is fracked up with
every Japanese plane Mod from here, minus old Tainan Modpack.
So it's a heavilly fracked DBW, but even with leftover Ki-44 working.
Will be replaced when I have time. Your pre Fix version showed up correct, Hei was perfect.
At least no trouble from my side. Will test the other kites and report back.

Thanks a bunch for this share
Tobias
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: greybeard on October 22, 2015, 02:25:30 AM
Your pre Fix version showed up correct, Hei was perfect.

This was probably due to you have installed this mod (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads3&file=details&id=1758). It contains file missing from pre-fix version; it was for this reason that neither me nor Spitwulf detected the glitch during tests, having we both this mod!

Thank you very much for feedback!

Cheers,
GB
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: barney on October 23, 2015, 03:03:42 PM
Thanks a lot for this historic correct package, well deserved for Japancats great models  :)
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: WWII44 on October 23, 2015, 05:06:48 PM
I have to say my favorite is the Otsu variant with the 40mm Cannon, partly because it was the model of Shoki that was in flying to pieces but mostly because it 'Kills Bombers Dead'! It take only a couple hits to bring down even the biggest of bombers.
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: ben_wh on October 24, 2015, 02:18:18 AM
Thank you very much, greybeard.  Really like the historically focused approach you used in refining these planes.

Cheers,
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: trent on October 24, 2015, 03:40:27 AM

Awesome Pack! Thank you very much!  :)

B.T.W. I have this working perfectly in my 4.10 + DBW 1.71 install.  ;)
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack
Post by: oldschoolie on October 24, 2015, 07:36:12 AM
Great stuff. Thank you.
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: greybeard on October 24, 2015, 12:19:49 PM
I have this working perfectly in my 4.10 + DBW 1.71 install.  ;)

Thank you very much - tag added - although there should be still a little glitch about the Ko, on which Spitwulf is working for a patch.
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: Spitwulf on October 25, 2015, 11:26:27 AM
Ok this is the patch for DBW/UP.3

D/L link: http://www.mediafire.com/download/4d5def4b48lj5gd/Ki-44_Pack_DBW_Patch.rar

Unzip and copy the content into Ki-44-II pack mod folder. Overwrite if requested. Don't forget to copy "cod" folder!

Included alternative "historic" machineguns for model Otsu, Otsu "late" and Hei.

Special thanks to Epervier for his decisive help with Ko model. Thank you!
Remain modest! No need to use a font as big ... ;)  :D (Edited by Epervier)

-Credits (patch)-

classfiles tweaks: Spitwulf

Support, classfile tweaks and new cod for Ko model: Epervier.

Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: trent on October 27, 2015, 03:43:11 AM
Ok this is the patch for DBW/UP.3
D/L link: http://www.mediafire.com/download/4d5def4b48lj5gd/Ki-44_Pack_DBW_Patch.rar

Excellent! Thank you very much, Spitwulf!  :)
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: D.Rasta on October 29, 2015, 03:13:20 PM
Greybeard, thank you very much for your work!

But I have a lot of questions about Ki-44 subtypes and about your pack installing ...
I beg your pardon and thanks in advance.

In pdf-file indicated, that you took info about armament, gunsights and production number of Ki-44 subtypes from Wikipedia.

The same info is in Osprey Aircraft of the Aces 100 - Ki-44 ‘Tojo’ Aces of World War 2 by Nicholas Millman:

(http://s13.postimg.cc/mzsfttpbb/44_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

(http://s29.postimg.cc/vczytomvr/44_4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

But in Osprey Aircam Aviation series 025 - Nakajima Ki.44 Shoki Ia,b,c/IIa,b,c in Japanese Army AIr Force Service by Richard M. Bueschel (you recommended me this autor in ''Nakajima Ki-43-II Early production model'' top) I found this info:
(http://s23.postimg.cc/lb9ci0nfv/44_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

What subtypes are Ko, Otsu and Hei in this book?
Is there Ki-44-IIa = Ki-44-IIKo (seems strange that only 3 built), Ki-44-IIb = Ki-44-IIOtsu (seems strange no cannon armament) and Ki-44-IIc = Ki-44-IIHei (seems strange the presence cannon armament - 20 and 40 mm) ?

Same info about cannon armament of Hei (not Otsu) subtipes I found in Aircraft Profile 255 - Nakajima Ki-44 Shoki ('Tojo') by John F. Brindley

(http://s16.postimg.cc/krgvg83hh/44_7.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

(http://s21.postimg.cc/4lvtnjbqv/44_5.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

(http://s3.postimg.cc/5htr72llv/44_6.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

What are you think about this armament info and about Ki-44-IIKo production number?
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: D.Rasta on October 29, 2015, 04:13:55 PM
I suppose that default skin for Ki-44-IIOtsu is incorrect...

(http://s15.postimg.cc/q2kc7ofln/ki_44_8.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

Such camouflage without fuselage hinomaru used on japaneese fighters in early 1942. So it is pre-production Ki-44 or Ki-44-I camouflage...

(http://s4.postimg.cc/ix7y1togd/ki_44_10.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

(http://s4.postimg.cc/7oytb5gy5/ki_44_9.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: greybeard on October 29, 2015, 04:41:23 PM
Hi Rasta and thanks for your competent questions.

I think armament of the various types was exactly that I detailed in first post. Only a late version of Otsu was added in the pack, since after disappointing experience in Philippines with the 40 mm cannon, it was replaced by two more Ho-103. About  Ki-44-II Ko production number by Bueschel, it is simply wrong; I believe most reliable figures can be found on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Ki-44#Variants):

"355 produced (s/n 1001-1355)"

About default skin for Otsu, you are right: that's the pre-production Ki-44 typical camouflage, already changed in dark olive brown for serial production Ki-44-I. I shall take care of it in occasion of next update of the pack.

Cheers,
GB
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: D.Rasta on October 29, 2015, 06:37:18 PM
I think armament of the various types was exactly that I detailed in first post. Only a late version of Otsu was added in the pack, since after disappointing experience in Philippines with the 40 mm cannon, it was replaced by two more Ho-103. About  Ki-44-II Ko production number by Bueschel, it is simply wrong; I believe most reliable figures can be found on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Ki-44#Variants):

"355 produced (s/n 1001-1355)"

About default skin for Otsu, you are right: that's the pre-production Ki-44 typical camouflage, already changed in dark olive brown for serial production Ki-44-I. I shall take care of it in occasion of next update of the pack.

I also think that Bueschel made a mistake and it was built way more than three Ki-44-IIKo.

About next update of the pack... I would like to ask to make some additions....

- Add provision for cannons for Ki-44-IIOtsu with default armament like on this pictures:

(http://s16.postimg.cc/5bx659jtx/ki_44_11.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

(http://s3.postimg.cc/pvdjgh97n/ki_44_12.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

not like this...

(http://s23.postimg.cc/cga7e0xyj/44_13.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/be00vhf53/full/)

- Maybe add 37-mm Ho-203 cannons with 25 r.p.g. as another one option of weapons for Ki-44-IIOtsu like on this picture:

(http://s28.postimg.cc/6v5ueid99/44_14.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

- Add Tube Gunsight fix.
I installed your pack from here http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads3&file=details&id=1670 and saw only this in SAS Modact 5.30 and in HSFX 7.03:

(http://s30.postimg.cc/6v4i9ke7l/44_15.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/xg7154gkt/full/)

Than I downloaded Tube Gunsight fix for Ki-44 for 4.11.1 and 4.12.1 from here: http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,17493.36.html
and saw this:

(http://s18.postimg.cc/k3cnyneeh/44_16.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/gwi4f0tyd/full/)

not this (like Ki-43-I):

(http://s30.postimg.cc/3qp8z181d/43_1.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/mvsi8smp9/full/)


Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: greybeard on October 30, 2015, 02:17:02 AM
- Add provision for cannons for Ki-44-IIOtsu with default armament like on this pictures:

(http://s3.postimg.cc/pvdjgh97n/ki_44_12.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

I think that was an anomalous, unique instance: 40 mm cannons were either provided or not (like all kinds of "optional" armaments, in first line use there was no time to "fit and unfit"). Standard armament consisted of two cowl 12.7 mm machine guns.

(http://s15.postimg.cc/tsvjxyjy3/Ki_44_II_Otsu_smooth_wing.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

Quote
- Maybe add 37-mm Ho-203 cannons with 25 r.p.g. as another one option of weapons for Ki-44-IIOtsu like on this picture:

(http://s28.postimg.cc/6v5ueid99/44_14.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

Sources are contradictory about use of Ho-203; evidence you provided, for instance, looks inconsistent with other sources:

(http://s4.postimg.cc/fwchoe03x/Ki_44_II_Hei_wing.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)


Quote
- Add Tube Gunsight fix.

I warned on M4T (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewtopic&t=20458) (see message at bottom) that this mod is not suited for HSFX; I hereby repeat that no fitting was made on this pack to ensure HSFX compatibility. All other your statements are right: thanks for posting the link to 4.12 compatible gunsight - I shall add that too in next update of this pack. About this:

(http://s18.postimg.cc/k3cnyneeh/44_16.jpg)

that is the original aspect early developers of Ki-44-II-Ko gave to gunsight view; I agree it is quite odd and, above all, it masks too much of the field of view. I shall try to fix this too in the future.

Regards,
GB

Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: Knochenlutscher on October 30, 2015, 05:17:07 AM
That Dildo is a rubber or Metal attachment, sealing sort of cap on what seems 12,7mm, please note the very small
gun shell ejector ports and smaller barrel in appearance. Though you can see the Reflex gunsight clearly.

(http://s1.postimg.cc/7kvjnjlzz/Type_2_Model_II_Hei_with_rubber_sealing.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/h5f6afbbv/full/)

Another Bunrindo Publication "Japanese Army Air Forces Battle Photographs Collection
has a picture with English caption on page 60|61
Picture 144:
"A Shoki Model 2 of the 47th Squadron seen during refuelling.
The Muzzles of the wing cannons have been covered."

(http://s18.postimg.cc/ipko0zz8p/Type_2_Model_II_20mm_Cover.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/oqicy2lut/full/)

(http://s16.postimg.cc/ve23i3rc5/Type_2_Model_II_20mm_Ammo_loading.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
Clearly the Muzzle of 12,7mm HO, that small bulk at muzzle top
can't be overseen.



Now to 301 HO 40mm

The green arrow points to HO 301 cannon removed, what you see is the early barrel housing minus barrel and minus barrel cover.

Most pictures show up a larger cannon from above, with different mounting.
A longitudal bulky static housing, then a second type in sleakier appearance
with symetrical bulks, both rounded edges.
Both versions of actual 40mm barrel used a SpitfireV like conical cover, but a bit longer from
appearance to it's fitted mounting. Trace the shadow in this picture...
(http://s17.postimg.cc/8ci8r8d5b/40mm_HO_4.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
Early 301 HO mounting...

Avions #120
This is the larger type barrel housing + barrel cover mounted. Similar to the green Arrow picture.

Later type modified HO301 barrel mount.

(http://s18.postimg.cc/utvsnm3op/40mm_HO_2.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/5nuugs2ed/full/)
Avions #120
This is a sleakier variant, I assume streamlined, thus late HO301 fitting. You see the naked barrel
lacking it's coverage.

Here is the late slim type with cover, a profile impression.
(http://s24.postimg.cc/tl2pzrwx1/40mm_HO_3.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
Avions #120
(http://s1.postimg.cc/77hn411r3/Type_2_Model_II_Otsu_40mm.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/8mj7sr2u3/full/)
From what I see, size of mount varied drastically, while barrel cover retained in these versions.

Some kites lacked the barrel cover, hmm, maybe servicing was easier then...
OK, more
(http://i.imgur.com/JbchDyW.jpg)

(http://s17.postimg.cc/4v3df9wcv/Type_2_Model_II_40mm_muzzles.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: greybeard on October 30, 2015, 06:20:52 AM
Knochenlutscher

Thanks for your comments.

I don't think the Shoki ever mounted a 20 mm cannon. The gun cap you highglighted is visible on same Bunrindo Publication "Japanese Special aircraft of WWII" also fitted on model Ko (which unlikely could be armed with Ho-5) on page 24,  and barrel shown in picture you posted likely belongs to a Ho-103 (please watch following shot of a Ko):

(http://s2.postimg.cc/oxtlhb1dl/Ki_44_II_Ko.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

also ammunition belt in same photo seemingly is composed of 12.7 mm rounds.

At any rate, when one enters, performing an historical research, in a "swamp" of arguable data, personally I prefer to rely on those where different sources and common sense concur.

About 40 mm cannon covers, I got the idea that there were two kinds (clearly visible also on photos you posted): one, so to speak, "slick" and one with little drop fairings. The third you depicted is probably a cover used on parked planes. Again, I like to trust in solid evidence, so we (me and Jero) chose second one since undoubtedly authentic and perhaps a bit more attractive than the slick one! ;)
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: Knochenlutscher on October 30, 2015, 07:41:45 AM
Yeah, I got it wrong, I'm late on the wire, I got deeply confused by that 37mm, than I
invented 20mm, both is 12,7mm.  o_O
Honestly these smaller non-40mm caps are a funny diversion, hope I haven't set you up too much,
excuse the dilemma.
Kind regards
Tobias
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: greybeard on October 31, 2015, 02:45:32 AM
... hope I haven't set you up too much,
excuse the dilemma.

Absolutely not! You're always welcome! ;)

Cheers,
GB
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: D.Rasta on November 03, 2015, 05:01:38 PM
That Dildo is a rubber or Metal attachment, sealing sort of cap on what seems 12,7mm, please note the very small
gun shell ejector ports and smaller barrel in appearance. Though you can see the Reflex gunsight clearly.

I think you are right and it is a cap on 12,7mm.

The same photo of Ki-44-II with tube gunsight:

(http://s28.postimg.cc/3q30p2vel/44_17.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)

I think that was an anomalous, unique instance: 40 mm cannons were either provided or not (like all kinds of "optional" armaments, in first line use there was no time to "fit and unfit"). Standard armament consisted of two cowl 12.7 mm machine guns.

Yes, this variant of removing 40 mm cannons was used in 87 sentai in Burma...
And I found some photos Ki-44-IIOtsu without any armament in wings similar to your photo.

Sorry for my mistakes.

One more photo of 40 mm cannon (I can't identify kind of cover):

(http://s24.postimg.cc/656xki3x1/44_18.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: greybeard on November 04, 2015, 01:46:42 AM
One more photo of 40 mm cannon (I can't identify kind of cover)

Hi Rasta, and thanks for your continued interest in this plane: it deserves it! :)

I don't think those are 40 mm cannons, judging by dimension; it looks like an umpteenth kind of gun covering - this time for 12.7 mm and opened on its tip - perhaps a protection against cold, if what is seen on the ground is snow or ice... :-|

In addition, a sort of drop fairing is visible under the wing, more or less where shell ejection chute should be. :-X

Regards,
GB
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: Knochenlutscher on November 04, 2015, 05:22:29 AM
Place is Kashiwa, Japan, Winter of 1944/45, I can trace white defence bands around hinomaru.
The Taiul bears a sort of Kanji Marking, but it's not enough to trace a unit.
That is the ubiquos catridge container I haven't traced before, seen on Bunrindo Technical drawings,
but now found pictures from Akeno Flightschool. It was a 12.7mm installation, you are right.

(http://s1.postimg.cc/jb3h5uxlb/Unbenannt_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
And here a funny completely different welded gun mounting or cover on "1213", note the streamlined slats

(http://s3.postimg.cc/xxedfe6hf/Unbenannt_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
Here another catridge 12.7mm container boosting Shoki 28 of Akeno Hikoshidan

Kind Regards
Tobias
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: greybeard on November 04, 2015, 10:56:20 AM
Thanks for further information and nice photos! Definitely, you're a mine! :)

It looks the Shoki was sort of "test bed" along all its career, seemingly more than other Japanese first line fighters.

Can't notice the slats on "1213". :-X

Hi Tobias,
GB
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: D.Rasta on November 04, 2015, 05:52:28 PM
I don't think those are 40 mm cannons, judging by dimension; it looks like an umpteenth kind of gun covering - this time for 12.7 mm and opened on its tip - perhaps a protection against cold, if what is seen on the ground is snow or ice... :-|

Yes, it's snow...
A lot of books contains too much mistakes!  :-X
In this one, autors interpret something in wings on below photo as Ho-203 cannon.

(http://s21.postimg.cc/5qk14mm3r/image.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: sakai on November 11, 2015, 09:06:33 AM
Just a suggestion : is it possible to get the reflector gunsisht for the Otsu Late? On most of the pictures and profiles, this model doesn't have a telescopic gunsight.
thanks for this pack
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: greybeard on November 12, 2015, 01:47:03 AM
Sorry, I think it would be unhistorical.

I already did all researches and I trust in current configuration.

GB
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: sakai on November 13, 2015, 09:21:45 AM
thanks for your answer.... I've consulted a few books on the subject and it is mainly said the the model Otus is normalyy fitted with a tubular gunsight but many of them were retrofitted with a reflector one....
I've just finished my pack of tojo from the 85th sentai (I'll post it very soon) and most of them are Ki-44-II Otsu and have a reflector gunsight (Saito's plane for example) On Millmann's book, the excellent profiles of few model Otsu have a reflector gunsight. That's why I've suggested to have this kind of gunsight on the model Otsu late (but, as there is nt many differecies beteween the model otsu and the hei, it's always possible to use the second one)

thanks for your work on that plane. I hope you'll like my work with this skinpack
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: D.Rasta on November 13, 2015, 10:01:48 AM
(but, as there is nt many differecies beteween the model otsu and the hei, it's always possible to use the second one)

I think so too...
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: greybeard on November 14, 2015, 01:05:03 AM
On Millmann's book, the excellent profiles of few model Otsu have a reflector gunsight.

I reviewed my copy of Millman's book and found only one Otsu having reflector gunsight: that at bottom of page 57, showing a Ki-44-II Otsu belonging to 3rd Chutai, 70th Sentai, August 1944.

Quote
(but, as there is nt many differecies beteween the model otsu and the hei, it's always possible to use the second one)

Actually, in game an Otsu with reflector gunsight would be virtually identical to Hei. Would make no sense even keeping a separate slot for it (Otsu Late).

Quote
I hope you'll like my work with this skinpack

Unfortunately, I notice that your skins are always "personalized" (IIRC). I make almost exclusively DGen campaign, so I need "generic" skins (although for the generic 85th Sentai skin I'm still unsure if leave or not the fine kanji of Wakamatsu on its tail...).

At any rate, the true problem right now is that I'm stuck with the umpteenth idiosyncrasy of Asura's DGen, in the making of my Ki-44 dedicated campaign, and it's impossible to get any true help from him.
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack
Post by: Griffon_301 on November 18, 2015, 08:35:33 AM
for people who like to use this pack with CUP WAW module, make sure to rem out the classfiles that come with vampire´s hidden KI-44 pack; they are located in the !0000_Classfiles folder within WAW; without remming them out, these birds here do not work as they should (meaning no new loadouts, no reflector gunsight, etc...)

EDIT: It is a little more difficult than that! I just found out that even when following my first advice, the II Otsu will not show the whole weapons loadout;
so what I did is the following: copy and paste ALL CLASSFILES from this pack into the !000_Classfiles folder (or whatever it is named in your install), let it overwrite (a total of 10 files) as asked; and then when finished, delete the 20 files you have just copied over again (the copied files should still be highlighted, making the selection easy);
no problems for now :) if any creep up, I will let you guys know...
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack
Post by: FANATIC MODDER on December 13, 2015, 09:46:00 AM
This is really great, thank you!!!
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack
Post by: SAS~Malone on December 19, 2015, 01:35:59 AM
only just found these now, while still playing catch-up after a lengthy absence, and they're awesome - big thanks, greybeard!  8)

while on the subject of Ki-44's, wasn't there a mod that added additional, asymmetrical loads, such as one wing DT, one wing bomb....i know there was one for the Ki-43's, but can't recall if it was done for the Ki-44's.? would be cool, not sure on historical accuracy, but certainly cool, lol  :D
what was that mod? anyone remember what i'm referring to.....?
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack
Post by: greybeard on December 19, 2015, 02:44:46 AM
... on the subject of Ki-44's... asymmetrical loads, such as one wing DT, one wing bomb....i know there was one for the Ki-43's... would be cool, not sure on historical accuracy, but certainly cool, lol  :D.

Sorry Malone, that's not my philosophy; I'm an history nut! :)

There's no historical evidence that Shoki ever carried asymmetrical loads, nor that it could carry. God bless who have fun mixing and matching "cool" things, but personally I've horror of that and try to avoid by all means.

Cheers,
GB
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack
Post by: SAS~Malone on December 19, 2015, 08:30:14 AM
all good, mate - you must mod what you believe in, after all... :D
i'll enjoy these as they are!   8)
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack
Post by: ddr on August 08, 2016, 09:35:47 AM
Hello, I have 4.13.2+modact 6.1... and a 60% ctd in game loading with ki-44 :)
maybe I missed somethig during installation of this beautiful mod, I've de-activated all other mods and all non "original" sfs modact files from sfs_auto, but still 60% ctd... what I'm wrong?
thank you
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: SAS~Epervier on August 08, 2016, 10:12:00 AM
This Mod has an icon 413.
But no message confirms it.
And you report an error, but you will not provide any information.
Although everyone knows that 60% generally corresponds to an incompatibility with the buttons or external FM.
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: Ta183Huckebein on August 09, 2016, 08:52:37 AM
Well, back when I was still trying to validate 4.13 version modactivators as being viable for more than reskin and retexture mods I managed to get these to work just fine (with the 4.13.1 modactivator, I can't remember if it was an SAS or FM modact). That being said, I had a few other Japanese aircraft, plus some JA weapons mods. I don't think that really affected anything though.

Just to confirm: you entered the air.ini lines in to the correct file and then copied the mod's folder to your "Mods/#SAS" folder, did you?

Just saying, because I had so much trouble installing Epervier's 4.09 Potez mod, until I sheepishly found that while I had copied the air.ini lines, I had not copied the mod into the #SAS folder. Just covering bases.
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack
Post by: ddr on August 09, 2016, 11:42:38 AM
un-correct lines in .ini file and uncorrec folder are the firsts I search, I'm not at home now and I will do other attempts in next days, for now thank you for help and have a nice summer! :)

EDIT: confirm in my 4.13.2 + sas modact 6.1 installation I have 60% ctd

but ki-44-I fly well O_o

anyway, thank you Greybeard for sharing your work(s), maybe it will be find a solution for 4.13 extreme loyalists (or for me):)

EDIT 2: with selector debug I had this, I don't know if this can help:
(http://i65.tinypic.com/r8gljp.jpg)
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: ROMULO on February 19, 2017, 02:06:13 PM
A lot of grease :D
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: polo199 on October 11, 2018, 04:31:27 AM
Thanks for this great bird ! It's working fine in my 4.13.4-MA6.4.

A question/request though : is it possible to revert the telescopic gunsight to the vanilla one, which we have on the KI-43? What would I have to do?
I'm using TrackIr and if I go in gunshight view while being off-centered, the gunshight is all off. I need to center my TrackIr view then go into gunsight view to get a proper, well-aligned crosshair.

I'm leaning towards realism and I agree this custom telescopic gunsight is great but it's not really convenient with the way I'm using my TrackIr.

If somebody has a quick procedure to use the vanilla one, I think I'll find my way. Thanks in advance.

Cheers and thanks again to you Greybeard for this great mod.
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: greybeard on October 12, 2018, 04:09:43 AM
... is it possible to revert the telescopic gunsight to the vanilla one, which we have on the KI-43?

Nobody has been able to do it so far. Please have a look at the following message and my next answer:

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,48811.msg534784.html#msg534784 (https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,48811.msg534784.html#msg534784)

I am glad that you appreciate the mod; I would just like to mention, on the occasion, that it is not only mine but also (and above all) by Spitwulf and Jeronimo (on the basis of Japancat's 3D model), unfortunately all disappeared nowadays from the mod scene of IL-2.

Regards,
GB
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: SAS~Epervier on October 12, 2018, 05:48:33 AM
Try with these Class for 4.09 : see attachments !
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: polo199 on October 12, 2018, 06:04:02 AM

Nobody has been able to do it so far. Please have a look at the following message and my next answer:

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,48811.msg534784.html#msg534784 (https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,48811.msg534784.html#msg534784)

Try with these Class : see attachments !

Thanks to both of you.  :) I had misunderstood what the comment mentioned by you GB, was about. I'm going to try Epervier's fix and if not working, I'll try the 4.11/4.12 fix. I'll report back later today.


I am glad that you appreciate the mod; I would just like to mention, on the occasion, that it is not only mine but also (and above all) by Spitwulf and Jeronimo (on the basis of Japancat's 3D model), unfortunately all disappeared nowadays from the mod scene of IL-2.

Thanks for the reminder. Kudos and thanks to the original creators of the mod for sure. Thanks to all (you and them) for your work. I'm having a lot of fun with these planes.
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: greybeard on October 12, 2018, 09:10:44 AM
Try with these Class : see attachments !

I'm sorry to say that they do not work on my side. Tested in 4.12.2 + ModAct 5.30. Quoi qu'il en soit, merci de votre coopération, mon ami.

Regards,
GB
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: SAS~Epervier on October 12, 2018, 12:49:27 PM
I'm sorry to say that they do not work on my side. Tested in 4.12.2 + ModAct 5.30. Quoi qu'il en soit, merci de votre coopération, mon ami.
Ok ! That's likely. The previous code was 409... of course !  ;)
Try this one!
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: polo199 on October 12, 2018, 01:37:10 PM
Try with these Class : see attachments !

I'm sorry to say that they do not work on my side. Tested in 4.12.2 + ModAct 5.30. Quoi qu'il en soit, merci de votre coopération, mon ami.

Not working for me either in 4.13.4 + MA6.4 (mais merci d'avoir proposer qqch M. Epervier ;) ).

The other fix is working fine. Thx guys!
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: greybeard on October 12, 2018, 04:21:49 PM
Try this one!

Sorry Epervier, I still see the bigger black rim. In addition, now I can't open tube gunsight front shield (Ctrl+D)! o_O

Can't figure out what I'm doing wrong...
Title: Re: Ki-44-II Pack [4.09] [4.10dbw] [4.12.2MA] [4.13MA]
Post by: polo199 on October 12, 2018, 04:57:18 PM
Epervier's solution somehow worked for me but I got the same gunsight issue I was getting before : close gunsight view off if triggered when your main view is not centered. That's not happening with your fix Greybeard.