# Special Aircraft Service

## the SAS Hangar => New Member Safety Area => Topic started by: FL2070 on February 25, 2020, 07:44:05 PM

Title: [4.13] La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: FL2070 on February 25, 2020, 07:44:05 PM
After being outclimbed by an La-7 in a dogfight while flying the Dora, I did multiple tests with combinations of engine overheat difficulty being on/off and which of me or the AI flies the La. The La outclimbs the Dora every single time, and at every altitude (even when I cheat with engine overheat off with the Dora to use MW50 + 110% constantly), yet Wikipedia claims the Dora has a climb rate of 17 m/s while the La has a climb rate of 15.7 m/s.

Am I missing something? Is Wikipedia just wrong?

The mission I used:
Code: [Select]
[MAIN]  MAP Tobruk/load.ini  TIME 12.0  CloudType 0  CloudHeight 1000.0  player r0101  army 1  playerNum 0[SEASON]  Year 1940  Month 6  Day 15[WEATHER]  WindDirection 0.0  WindSpeed 0.0  Gust 0  Turbulence 0[RespawnTime]  Bigship 1800  Ship 1800  Aeroanchored 1800  Artillery 1800  Searchlight 1800[Wing]  r0100  r0101[r0100]  Planes 1  Skill 1  Class air.LA_7B20  Fuel 100  weapons default[r0100_Way]  NORMFLY 136132.07 197022.48 500.00 300.00 &0  NORMFLY 302366.78 199150.83 10000.00 680.00 &0[r0101]  Planes 1  Skill 1  Class air.FW_190D9LATE  Fuel 100  weapons default[r0101_Way]  NORMFLY 135419.85 197092.41 500.00 300.00 &0  NORMFLY 302967.51 198894.61 10000.00 650.00 &0[NStationary][Buildings][Bridge][House]
I'm using 4.13.4m with whatever buttons file comes with Modact 6.4.
Title: Re: [4.13] La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: SAS~Storebror on February 25, 2020, 10:46:48 PM
Modact uses Stock Flight Models for Stock Aircraft - that's intentional to keep it "online compatible" and avoid endless debates about flight model realism in Modact buttons.
You've used an AI plane (you should know by now that AI is cheating in IL-2, they've got a much sumplified flight model, don't suffer from overheat, don't suffer from G-forces etc.) against a human player plane.
You've furthermore used the wet dream plane of Oleg, with it's vastly overdone stock flight model, against an example of the hampered plane family in IL-2, intentionally crippled by Oleg to give the russians the required advantage to boost russian player's ego.

The result in a 1-on-1 comparison is this, but mind you, put another 20-30% on top for the red lines because AI vs. Human Player is Superpowers vs. Granddaddy.

(https://i.ibb.co/V9S0MpY/D9-vs-La7.jpg)

]cheers[
Mike
Title: Re: [4.13] La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: Phoenix on February 26, 2020, 02:49:54 AM
Soon appeared BF-109K-14 and FW-190D-15 and Ta-152H-1 to raise the ego of neo-Nazis offended by Oleg
Title: Re: [4.13] La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: SAS~Storebror on February 26, 2020, 04:24:32 AM
Agreed except for the Ta-152H-1 which in stock game is a crippled pile of sh*t as well as all other members of the 190 family.

]cheers[
Mike
Title: Re: La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: FL2070 on February 26, 2020, 12:51:42 PM
Thanks guys. Note, Storebror, that when you said
Quote
You've used an AI plane
that isn't entirely true. I did the test with both me and the AI flying the La, and even with me flying the La, I still outclimbed the Dora massively.

I don't suppose there'd be an offline version of 4.13.4 buttons, or a FMD dump of stock 4.13.4 buttons?
Title: Re: La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: greybeard on February 27, 2020, 02:51:51 AM
I don't suppose there'd be an offline version of 4.13.4 buttons, or a FMD dump of stock 4.13.4 buttons?

You may download them at following link, if you want to fiddle with them; they are buttons of game version 4.13.3, but no new planes have been added in version 4.13.4. Only one is still hashed, since the relevant name is missing from my filelist:

Title: Re: La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: FL2070 on February 27, 2020, 07:14:32 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: [4.13] La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: baronbutcher on February 28, 2020, 09:09:22 AM
Soon appeared BF-109K-14 and FW-190D-15 and Ta-152H-1 to raise the ego of neo-Nazis offended by Oleg
Maybe for some.  I would like to see a lot of aircraft with more correct references to performance, nothing to do with neo-nazis or pro communist or whatever crap.  A lot of aircraft it would be good to  see major faults put in, He-177 (random) engine fires for example, perhaps at random have aircraft model with production defects like the Lagg 3 early Yak1's etc. series, Sabre initial engine troubles like in the Hawker Typhoon (one of my favourites :-*)or poor quality production of some German and Japanese aircraft late in the war. Example is the Ki-84. a otherwise excellent fighter. Now to the Fw190 D-9 model initially some manufactured couldn't get up to the required and stated performance (according to Jg26 notes) but was a well design and most batches a well made aircraft. (But) In other words many aircraft while performance was good as or better than opponents manufactured quality sometimes wasn't. (That also goes for not as good or inferior designs to opponents manufactured poorly).  :-X Oleg bias towards performance for (some!) Russian is noted and 'Storebor' is correct. The Fw190D-9 without mentioning the above is generally performance wise is at a disadvantage in climbing compared to the La7 (and others )which isn't correct. Also AI is always at its best performance being unrealistic. (Cheats...'Storebor') I can't see Oleg making Bf109 K or Fw190 or whatever to raise ego neo-Nazis  :(  ::) ha, ha,  :))as he just doesn't want to offend ego's of pro-Communist Stalinist's. :(   :)) )  (By the way some just like Luftwaffe aircraft and most are not pro-neo nazis  ]nono[ as some who like Soviet aircraft aren't pro Stalinist's Commies (well in both cases I hope not!)  :-X ::) It's not a matter of left or right end of the fence pardon the pun! It's just apparently alright to have late RAF or US 1944 model performance aircraft pitted against for example against a mid year Luftwaffe fighter model to be inferior in some cases even when for examples an RAF and a certain USAAF fighter mark was in real life was superior, (I won't name don't want to upset or start anything) but hey most Soviet fighter aircraft has no trouble at all against Axis and Western Allies (being better overall or in most cases, especially in AI.) ]banghead[ ]violent1[   :)) I do like the Yak3, IL-2 & Pe-2 series. :) Still it is just a game sim with deflects but thanks to Oleg for starting it even though..!) A lot can be corrected  (and have been done) or just play with it. Not perfect but thanks to talented modders, research, SAS etc. has vastly improved IL2 from Oleg team and TD and continue to do so.  ]thumbsup[ I hope to get back into it soon. Cheers   ]cheers[
Title: Re: [4.13] La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: Koty on February 29, 2020, 12:58:53 AM
:-X

Do note that performance in this diagram for the Dora is without overboosting and thus not as good as it should. However - to put it very simply: trying to outclimb La-7 at low altitude is foolish. Try to do it at 5 km and up. Are the flight models off? Yes. Is it some kind of bias? Who knows. Is it entirely ahistorical? No, not really.

Anyway, since I hate the "oh no X made a game so the X is OP" discussions, so I'll stay away from this one.
Title: Re: [4.13] La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: SAS~Storebror on February 29, 2020, 06:46:28 AM
performance in this diagram for the Dora is without overboosting
Don't know what you think you've seen, but the diagram is definitely with overboost.

]cheers[
Mike
Title: Re: [4.13] La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: Phoenix on February 29, 2020, 07:09:18 AM
wow how much text
you are one of those offended by Oleg, whose seat says "Achtung"  ^-^
Title: Re: [4.13] La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: baronbutcher on February 29, 2020, 08:32:33 AM
wow how much text
you are one of those offended by Oleg, whose seat says "Achtung"  ^-^
No...внимание Oleg. ;D. :)). it's just frustrating AI sometimes but yer I did write a bit of text sorry about that.  :)
Title: Re: [4.13] La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: Koty on February 29, 2020, 09:17:18 AM
performance in this diagram for the Dora is without overboosting
Don't know what you think you've seen, but the diagram is definitely with overboost.

]cheers[
Mike

Supposedly the Soviets tested it at max nominal. Not the full 1.8 with whatever device they used, I believe MW50 on the Dora

though we can go ahead and get a full diagram for the dora as well:
(again without MW-50)
You can see that it gets closer to La-7 at nominal power, even slightly outclimbs the La-7 at the lowest few hundred m of altitude.
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/Fw_190_V53_climb.jpg)
but that was a test prototype
final machine performed more like this:
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/Fw_190_D-9_210001_FB3_climb.jpg)

And with MW-50 the difference at low altitude is miniscule, with advantage for La-7, past like 2 km, the Dora takes it ove and gains more and more advantage as you climb.

As for Ta-152H-1, yes, it is supposed to fly like a pig, at an altitude of less than 9 km. Blame the glider-like wings :))

So no, instead of thinking that this is a case of someone liking or hating something, it's a case of inaccurate modelling based on very limited data. Just for comparison, the Dora in DCS very much is a pig ;) compared to the 109K-4 and good old Spitfire mk.IX at least.

But hey, things can always be improved, as was already mentioned. Just don't fall into the BEST FIGHTER OF THE WAR pit, that many have found their way into.

Here also the MW-50 test:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/Fw_190_D-9_C3.pdf (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/Fw_190_D-9_C3.pdf)
Title: Re: [4.13] La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: Gubi on February 29, 2020, 09:23:46 AM
Cheers Koty.  Prost
Title: Re: [4.13] La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: SAS~Storebror on February 29, 2020, 10:29:56 AM
As for Ta-152H-1, yes, it is supposed to fly like a pig, at an altitude of less than 9 km. Blame the glider-like wings :))
The high aspect ratio wings of the 152H are supposed to cause a certain amount of unwanted drag at low altitude, and they are supposed to cause a much worse roll rate compared to a "normal" Dora.
But they are not supposed to make the 152H fly like a pig.
Not at all.
No reason for such thing.
And the few available reports of pilots fighting in a 152H - and these fights where reports are available all took place right on the deck - indicate the exact opposite to a plane "flying like a pig".
The pilots deemed the 152H their life saver.

]cheers[
Mike
Title: Re: La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: jpten on February 29, 2020, 02:33:50 PM
Perhaps we need to mod a flying pig (even a Franken-Pig might be good enough) so we can compare it to the 152H.
Title: Re: [4.13] La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: SAS~Storebror on February 29, 2020, 11:57:19 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/5YXQmn1/pig.gif)
Title: Re: [4.13] La-7 outclimbs FW190D9. Am I missing something?
Post by: Koty on March 14, 2020, 05:31:26 AM
:-X it's just a figure of speech
i hate draggy planes ok