Special Aircraft Service
the SAS Hangar => The Lounge => Topic started by: stugumby on April 07, 2016, 10:45:19 AM
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just thought id pass this along for those who are interested.
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=229683
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WoooWoooWooooW!!!!!
Only reading its Chagelog , it sounds like very impressive big update!
Especially Ground vehicles / Trains / Ships' updates are interesting for me.
I feel it is not a small update of "0.1" but measure like "1.0" version-up. ;D
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The main question is:
How much has the Java code been messed up this time, meaning: How many mods will still work?
Best regards - Mike
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https://thefundraisingcoach.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/bored-man.jpg
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SAS Modact no longer works.
No big deal though, we have CUP.
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Are we to assume now that moddable IL-2 is up to 4.12.2 only and that Daidalos's 4.13 onwards is in effect a vanilla game only? I know there is Modact 6 for 4.13 but having experienced the problems Modact 6 has with FMB my question remains..
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SAS Modact no longer works.
No big deal though, we have CUP.
......priceless ....... :o
TD .. " a day late and a dollar short"..... as usual
I am sure that the bits in this latest offering that aren't dedicated to code changes and/or correcting bugs in their previous release, :P will be converted in due course to be compatible with the versions that 90% of the community use.
In fact I will bet that some of my illustrious and highly talented colleagues are already on the case ...... ;)
G;
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Give credit where credit is due. The new aircraft, revised cockpits, and new ground objects represent real improvements to the game. Ditto for the revised train effects and rolling stock. All are worth porting over to CUP.
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SAS Modact no longer works.
Funny, isn't it?
You just buy a new car and all of a sudden the old keys don't fit anymore.
The world has become such a strange place... :-|
the problems Modact 6 has with FMB
... which have been solved since 9 months.
the bits in this latest offering that aren't dedicated to code changes and/or correcting bugs in their previous release, :P will be converted in due course to be compatible with the versions that 90% of the community use.
That's the way to go at the moment.
Since TD's habit of deliberately changing the base game code in a way to render most of the existing mods incompatible with new patch versions is unlikely to change, our limited resources are far too precious to waste them on running behind TD's bait.
We tried to change that, we tried to talk to TD and establish a kind of mutual respect in the development of code changes, but TD showed no commitment at all.
The new aircraft, revised cockpits, and new ground objects represent real improvements to the game. Ditto for the revised train effects and rolling stock.
Absolutely true.
It's the same vice versa: TD knows of the great mods coming from the community and they frequently take some of them (often times together with the regarding modder) for inclusion into their works.
That makes it even harder to accept that there's no way to get them to reason and to finally work together on the further development of IL2.
Best regards - Mike
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About working together... let's say there are many... controversial people around...
...so I guess picking only a certain circle of people is reasonable.
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Test Modact with 4.13.1
Crash at 60% - solved: the buttons in 413 is different (1007 KB)
Then crash at 70% - core java files changed in the new files.SFS or the new dt.dll included in the patch (if this last one is the case, this would indeed need to be considered as an open war declaration towards the mod community)
Here's the link to the classdumped files of 4.13.1:
https://www.mediafire.com/download/7xjfdbz7utjlcol/Classdumped+4.13.1+Files.7z
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Whenever I see comments praising TD for their latest "poisoned chalice" the phrase "Turkeys voting for Christmas" comes to mind...... ;)
Without the input from the wider modding community this game would have slipped into oblivion long ago. It would never have had this kind of longevity and loyal support if TD patches were all that was available.
TD are fully aware of this fact, indeed it is what drives their need to try and establish "control" by code changes that seek to negate any other input. By forcing modders to devote valuable time to playing "catch up" they think they can call the tune .... :-|
Anyway I know this has all be said many, many times before ...... I also know that there are guys here who will read this and are also part on the TD Mafia, so be under no illusion s that they do what they do in the full knowledge of the impact it has on the community ....... that is why most of the guys who have any sense are sad to see TD being encouraged by some members here to pursue what amounts to an "all ours or nothing" policy. Just remember we have tried to co-operate, they have refused to respond.
IMHO the need to draw a line in the sand only becomes more obvious as each successive "slap in the face" from TD is delivered to the community.
G;
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...so I guess picking only a certain circle of people is reasonable.
who will pick the pickers ? :P
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I think is time to finish added "patches" for our mod game.
In my opinion TD added some "news" only by damage our community mods work.
We can cut only news from patch (planes, pits, maps etc) - classes - not !
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I find no readme...
Does it have to be installed on a 4.12.2m or a 4.13RC04m ?
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4.13 has no such exciting gameplay update hence I also think like Ranswers, we should import into 4.12 what we can.
+1
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Since TD's habit of deliberately changing the base game code in a way to render most of the existing mods incompatible with new patch versions is unlikely to change, our limited resources are far too precious to waste them on running behind TD's bait.
We tried to change that, we tried to talk to TD and establish a kind of mutual respect in the development of code changes, but TD showed no commitment at all.
... at last ...! :D
This is exactly what guys like Lebig and Lutz have been saying and writing for years and years ... ;)
Can't remember that DT's member name who said:
"... we are officials, we've got the tools and bla bla bla ..."
This was very long ago, at a time when HaDeS used to develop UP, using "da tooolz" he shared with Lutz ...
Long live 4.09 rebels ...! :P
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The main addition of 413 is in the field of bombing and it's really a great thing (truth must be said) - barometric fuze, new bombsights historically correct and working, chronometer and such - If these can be brought to 4.12, then we can wipe 413 without any second thought and free some room on hard disk.
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Hi, everybody. Has seen many panic messages that to be engaged in creation of MODS there is no sense any more that everything was gone... Hold your horses. :) The last half a year I was engaged in new assembly of MODS instead of HSFX, DBW and others. Assembly is made on version 4.13.1. I used the initial ModAct 6, SAS EngineMOD 2.8, C&C codes and other developments. I have tried to put as much as possible into her all operation which I used earlier. Assembly on structure completely open, addition of new MODS in her is possible as in the folder #SAS earlier. Now the first stage - the WWII planes is ready, in work of JetEra and WWI is planned. On existence of free time I hope to continue her development and addition of new good MODS.
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The main addition of 413 is in the field of bombing and it's really a great thing (truth must be said) - barometric fuze, new bombsights historically correct and working, chronometer and such - If these can be brought to 4.12, then we can wipe 413 without any second thought and free some room on hard disk.
In it there is no sense, it is possible just to go forward.
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it beggars belief how a small handful of bastages keep trying to spoil the fun for everyone else.
absolutely disgusting, is what it is. worse than pre-schoolers, seems the standard behavior.
they should leave modding and become politicians. lol. not.
best i not comment any further, as i don't like being too rude in a public forum.
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These are not panic messages, Asura. This are only messages of people tired of TD childish behavior, and tired of loosing time in adapting mods to a perpetually changing environment.
If these changes of environment were really worth it, nobody would complain. But the overwhelming assessment of the modding community is that the few worthy additions of the successive TD versions do not worth the pain and the time of the modders.
And it's really beyond my understanding why when passing from 4.13 RC4 to 4.13.1, TD team did not care to keep compatibility with the current mod activators (SAS and FM), after all the discussions that took place - It's simply insulting.
This kind of situation calls from a single kind of answer - take the last stable modded version (4.12) and extract all the worthy additions from TD present and future (if there are such) versions. This was obvious in my eyes since the release of 4.11 - I wrote so then. It's sad that facts have proven I was correct.
Apparently. and although we wanted and tried hard to believe differently, this recurring TD's team behavior is not accidental, but reflects the dark sides of their personality and (lack of) education.
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Except us, there are many people understanding many subtleties of 3D modeling and programming those who from the word MODS jump aside as from the devil. :) And new versions from DT after all become first of all for them. As for 4.13.1 and compatibility, unfortunately the new team had to correct many mistakes in cheese 4.13RC4. Therefore there are a lot of changes. Question of interaction between DT and MOD community in general very difficult. Two different teams with the different purposes won't be able to synchronize the plans. For moders there is a choice - to stop and work with the old version and not to watch then new DT versions, or to regularly adapt the works under fresh versions. I for myself have chosen the second. What else can be made in order that the old man of Il-2 continued to live and please players? I as the participant of DT (in some measure) and 100% of moder am ready to be someone like the intermediary. I have access to initial codes 1C and I can help with adaptation of spendthrifts under new versions (what I was engaged recently in), I can (likely) as to inform on plans and the made changes. But here to influence these plans and for the made changes I won't be able and I won't be.
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This kind of situation calls from a single kind of answer - take the last stable modded version (4.12) and extract all the worthy additions from TD present and future (if there are such) versions. This was obvious in my eyes since the release of 4.11 - I wrote so then. It's sad that facts have proven I was correct.
Apparently. and although we wanted and tried hard to believe differently, this recurring TD's team behavior is not accidental, but reflects the dark sides of their personality and (lack of) education.
... yep, exactly what could have been done way back, right from 4.09m, and thus many mods wouldn't have been lost on the way, and many modders wouldn't have been disgusted to the point of quitting modding ... :-X
Hopefully, apart from DT's patches, there would only be one community, gathered around a unique modded version of our beloved sim, made of all that could be extracted from non cooperative DT (+ of course all the modders mods), and not like it was the case, several packs that are not compatible with the other site's one, not to say a word about inter sites wars ...
The recent release of FM's Sunderland + cooperation of SAS modders, is the perfect example of what can be achieved when forces and talent work together ... ;)
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i think back to how many great and talented modders we have lost along the way, more with each new TD patch.
a huge loss to the community, all to this handful who seem to believe they own the rights and thus can do what they like, rest of the world be buggered.
if i think where a united IL-2 scene could have been, other than the fact that we now spend 90% of our efforts making all those old mods function with each new TD patch.
honestly, i'm disgusted, totally disgusted.
i won't have any more to do with this crap, it's just a waste of everyone's time.
honestly, TD then play 'hurt' and 'innocent', when they know full well what a mess they make of things.
if the plan is to kill mods, then it will fail. miserably.
we are now getting accustomed to forging our own path, and it seems it will stay that way.
this community will not stand for being held to ransom with each new TD patch.
take it and shove it where the sun don't shine.
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I very much welcome new content from every source.
I welcome the latest offering from TD and will happily patch my copy of the "stock" game to begin to explore all the new stuff.
-- but I look forward to being able to add as much of this new content as possible to my core installation v4.12.2
That's where the future is IMO.
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This is exactly what guys like Lebig and Lutz have been saying and writing for years and years ... ;)
Can't remember that DT's member name who said:
"... we are officials, we've got the tools and bla bla bla ..."
His name is/ was "Cicero" aka "Caspar" (I'll call him Caspar because I know this name from the old "UBI" forum). ;)
With Caspar I had a heated argument in end 2011 due to the TD behavior in some IL-2 forums.
In three forums, I had referred to the project by the TD. Before the appearance from 4:11 Patch TD had reported that one wants to make the embed of mods for IL-2 impossible.
Caspar is/ was the bla-bla man in all forums for TD only. Good for Caspar: He himself still knew nothing of the subsequent TD behavior in the years 2011/ 2012.
I knew then about the TD projects as Caspar and therefore Caspar called me a liar! I fought hard against the opinion of TD - "Mod is Hack".
TD seems to be "unmodded IL-2" philosophy of backers for! They are too proud and conceited to admit Mods in "their own" IL-2.
In memory of the Caspar bla-bla (I'm sorry, it is in german):
https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=25836.30;wap2 (https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=25836.30;wap2)
It seems to me quite clear, SAS is the best IL-2 community in the whole Internet! 8)
Greetings to all here,
Gerhard :)
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... posted by Ton414 at FM's ... ;)
Comparison between 4.13 and 4.13.1 ... :-X
(http://s28.postimg.cc/5a6io7f19/Comparaci_n_4_13_413_1.jpg)
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Thank you Ton414 :)
That confirms the worst expectations.
Best regards - Mike
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Data aren't right because of the changed hashing and parameters of packing sfs.
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changed hashing and parameters of packing sfs
Ah, the matters are getting even worse.
Thanks for pointing that out.
What benefit should a change in the hashing algorithm and the SFS packing have, apart from making life harder for the modding community once more?
Best regards - Mike
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What benefit should a change in the hashing algorithm and the SFS packing have, apart from making life harder for the modding community once more?
The preventing of any change by mods in 4.13.1 - what else?
;)
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All is much simpler it was necessary to continue work on new versions on new to address in 1C, to get the work permit and to adjust all isntrument from the very beginning. And as at compilation all files change comparison yields such result.
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at compilation all files change
That's just plain wrong.
Best regards - Mike
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What benefit should a change in the hashing algorithm and the SFS packing have, apart from making life harder for the modding community once more?
The preventing of any change by mods in 4.13.1 - what else?
;)
I won't tell for the DT old team, I didn't penetrate into disputes and problems, but at new team wasn't and there are no plans as that to prevent mods. Everything is available to changes as before. I don't play many years in stock the version of game, only mods at the heart of which SAS ModAct and a set of good and different mods from the different websites. Now with pleasure I pass the dynamic campaigns Motorhed on assembly for version 4.13.1. Everything that is made in mods everything works.
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at compilation all files change
That's just plain wrong.
Best regards - Mike
So tools 1C work. There is absolutely other approach. Strongly differs from mods.
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Bullshit.
1C have their own Java compiler?
Bullshit.
A java compiler that creates different binary code each time the same class gets compiled?
Bullshit.
Best regards - Mike
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... many THX, Mike, for being that staightforward, and thus tell DT we are not that dumb ... :P
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changed hashing and parameters of packing sfs
What are you speaking about? I made a classdump from 4.13.1 then de-hashed it as usual with the same classresolver.jar we always use, then extracted the new buttons file with the same SFSextractV3.1...
The hashing and the packing have not been changed or I am really missing some points.
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And I have just seen binary comparison of contents of files. Nobody changed such number of files. All made changes are in Readme. What else can give such error when comparing? Differences at compilation - decompiling
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You should try to think really carefully.
If there was a general change in the compiler/decompiler process, all files would have changed.
Nobody changed such number of files.
Looks like you don't know about inner classes.
Sure you're a Java guy?
Best regards - Mike
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Sure you're a Java guy?
Mike, please, this is uncalled for. :o
Don't go down to the level of TD's "we have the tools" - it would be their victory if we go on the same foul way.
And don't forget that most of us are indeed not Java guys ( You are the one who tought us Eclipse, remember. :) )
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Someone who's talking about "error when comparing" and then tells just BS about the reasons of the comparison result has to take that, sorry to say.
Best regards - Mike
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Small editing of ModAct 6.01 for start 4.13.1.
https://www.mediafire.com/download/tbeglnalz37q372/%214131Fix.zip
Also at me SAS EngineMOD for 4.13.1 is almost ready
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... just posted at FM's, by Ton414:
Here is a complete list of all classfiles that have changed (57 pages):
https://www.mediafire.com/download/7t60w85tt6xdja8/comparacion_4.13-4.13.1.pdf
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Small editing of ModAct 6.01 for start 4.13.1.
https://www.mediafire.com/download/tbeglnalz37q372/%214131Fix.zip
Also at me SAS EngineMOD for 4.13.1 is almost ready
Nice Asura.
Apparently you have more detailed information about the code changes than we do, so if you could share this information with the modding community, adopting mods for the new patch might become much easier.
It's all about sharing knowledge and if TD in fact doesn't want to hamper modding, I don't see a reason why not to share it.
Remember: You have access to our SAS Source Code Repository, so we did provide our part of the sharing deal long time ago.
It'd just be fair to share something back now, wouldn't it?
Best regards - Mike
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... just posted at FM's, by Ton414:
Here is a complete list of all classfiles that have changed (57 pages):
Thanks to Ton414 for showing the changes in red letters. ;) 8)
@Mick: Thank you for sharing the link. :-*
Best regards, Gerhard :)
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For what SAS modders/ modding need any patch 4.13.1?
Have bigger mod platform DBW or C.U.P. or WWI Jet era etc ... I think that no need DT patches and his content.
Simply no need, simply ignore it :)
All guys here can continue in path on which work. Support his mods for C.U.P.
It doesn't matter which official version exist ..
Keep back-compatibility - HERE in SAS - is hell ... (no in DT), solution is wrote up
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Apparently you have more detailed information about the code changes than we do, so if you could share this information with the modding community, adopting mods for the new patch might become much easier.
It's all about sharing knowledge and if TD in fact doesn't want to hamper modding, I don't see a reason why not to share it.
Remember: You have access to our SAS Source Code Repository, so we did provide our part of the sharing deal long time ago.
It'd just be fair to share something back now, wouldn't it?
Best regards - Mike
Unfortunately the new DT team is also connected by obligations about not disclosure as well as old. But I am sure it is possible to find openings which will allow to continue to do without problems mods compatible to new versions of patches. I will bring 100% to the final of work on adaptation of key spendthrifts, such as SAS EngineMOD. Precisely nothing prevents to transfer me some parts (procedures) of classes which are mistakenly decompiled. It is ready to discuss other aspects of cooperation. For example I have done the translation of CUP under 4.13.1 - 85-90% of work and is ready to share. I have completely ready AI Flyables Pack under 4.13.1.
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Keep back-compatibility is hell ...
Unfortunately the new DT team is also connected by obligations about not disclosure as well as old.
.... same old TD, same old lies, same old excuses ...... same old agenda .... :P
(https://campusinfo.umich.edu/files/campusinfo/styles/large/public/field/image/happy-groundhog-day-1.jpg?itok=KV3aFlPK)
;)
G;
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Thank you for this pack !
But...
[18:14:54] INTERNAL ERROR: Can't open file '3do/Artillery/Russia/BM82_1937/Winter_Dmg/Hier.sim'
[18:14:54] WARNING: object '3do/Artillery/Russia/BM82_1937/Winter_Dmg/Hier.sim' of class 'SIM' not loaded
[18:14:54] INTERNAL ERROR: MeshObj: Can't load SIM 3do/Artillery/Russia/BM82_1937/Winter_Dmg/Hier.sim
[18:14:54] com.maddox.il2.engine.GObjException: Mesh 3do/Artillery/Russia/BM82_1937/Winter_Dmg/Hier.sim not created
Files "3do/Artillery/Russia/BM82_1937/Winter_Dmg/Hier.sim" not exist !
// Mesh
MeshSummer 3do/Artillery/Russia/BM82_1937/Summer/Hier.him
MeshSummerDamage 3do/Artillery/Russia/BM82_1937/Summer_Dmg/Hier.him
MeshWinter 3do/Artillery/Russia/BM82_1937/Winter/Hier.him
MeshWinterDamage 3do/Artillery/Russia/BM82_1937/Winter_Dmg/Hier.sim
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.il2.engine.ActorMesh.setMesh(ActorMesh.java:72)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.il2.engine.ActorHMesh.setMesh(ActorHMesh.java:86)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.il2.objects.vehicles.artillery.ArtilleryGeneric.setMesh(ArtilleryGeneric.java:652)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.il2.objects.vehicles.artillery.ArtilleryGeneric.Die(ArtilleryGeneric.java:500)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.il2.objects.vehicles.artillery.ArtilleryGeneric.msgShot(ArtilleryGeneric.java:354)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.il2.ai.MsgShot.invokeListener(MsgShot.java:57)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.rts.Message._send(Message.java:1217)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.rts.Message.sendToObject(Message.java:1158)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.rts.Message.sendTo(Message.java:1134)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.rts.Message.trySend(Message.java:1115)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.rts.Message.send(Message.java:1079)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.il2.ai.MsgShot.send(MsgShot.java:46)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.il2.objects.weapons.Bullet.collided(Bullet.java:149)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.il2.engine.MsgBulletCollision.invokeListener(MsgBulletCollision.java:39)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.rts.Message._send(Message.java:1217)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.rts.Message.sendToObject(Message.java:1191)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.rts.Message.sendTo(Message.java:1134)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.rts.Message.trySend(Message.java:1115)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.rts.Time.loopMessages(Time.java:252)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.rts.RTSConf.loopMsgs(RTSConf.java:101)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.il2.game.MainWin3D.loopApp(MainWin3D.java:131)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.il2.game.Main.exec(Main.java:439)
[18:14:54] at com.maddox.il2.game.GameWin3D.main(GameWin3D.java:235)
[18:16:45] java.lang.NullPointerException
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.il2.engine.ActorHMesh.collisionR(ActorHMesh.java:21)
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.il2.engine.CollideEnvXY._getSphere(CollideEnvXY.java:865)
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.il2.engine.CollideEnvXY.getSphere(CollideEnvXY.java:853)
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.il2.ai.MsgExplosion.send(MsgExplosion.java:57)
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.il2.objects.weapons.BulletAntiAirGeneric.timeOut(BulletAntiAirGeneric.java:61)
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.il2.engine.CollideEnvXY.doBulletMoveAndCollision(CollideEnvXY.java:806)
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.il2.engine.InterpolateAdapter.msgTimeOut(InterpolateAdapter.java:183)
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.rts.MsgTimeOut.invokeListener(MsgTimeOut.java:73)
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.rts.Message._send(Message.java:1217)
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.rts.Message.sendToObject(Message.java:1191)
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.rts.Message.sendTo(Message.java:1134)
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.rts.Message.trySend(Message.java:1115)
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.rts.Time.loopMessages(Time.java:252)
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.rts.RTSConf.loopMsgs(RTSConf.java:101)
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.il2.game.MainWin3D.loopApp(MainWin3D.java:131)
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.il2.game.Main.exec(Main.java:439)
[18:16:45] at com.maddox.il2.game.GameWin3D.main(GameWin3D.java:235)
[18:24:10] java.lang.NullPointerException
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.engine.ActorHMesh.collisionR(ActorHMesh.java:21)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.engine.CollideEnvXY.removeStatic(CollideEnvXY.java:1418)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.engine.ActorPosStatic.clearEnvs(ActorPosStatic.java:283)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.engine.ActorPosStatic.destroy(ActorPosStatic.java:308)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.engine.Actor.destroy(Actor.java:771)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.engine.ActorMesh.destroy(ActorMesh.java:49)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.engine.ActorHMesh.destroy(ActorHMesh.java:66)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.objects.vehicles.artillery.ArtilleryGeneric.destroy(ArtilleryGeneric.java:615)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.engine.Engine.destroyListGameActors(Engine.java:160)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.engine.CollideEnvXY.resetGameClear(CollideEnvXY.java:1438)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.engine.Engine.resetGameClear(Engine.java:199)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.game.Main.resetGameClear(Main.java:84)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.game.Main3D.resetGameClear(Main3D.java:1144)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.game.Main.resetGame(Main.java:96)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.builder.Builder.enter(Builder.java:2290)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.gui.GUIBuilder._enter(GUIBuilder.java:53)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.game.GameState.enterPop(GameState.java:96)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.game.GameStateStack.pop(GameStateStack.java:70)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.gui.GUISingleStat.doNext(GUISingleStat.java:48)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.gui.GUIStat$DialogClient.notify(GUIStat.java:329)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.gwindow.GWindow.notify(GWindow.java:144)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.gwindow.GWindowDialogControl._notify(GWindowDialogControl.java:51)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.gui.GUIButton._notify(GUIButton.java:18)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.gwindow.GWindowDialogControl.mouseClick(GWindowDialogControl.java:86)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.gui.GUIButton.mouseClick(GUIButton.java:22)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.gwindow.GWindow._mouseButton(GWindow.java:556)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.gwindow.GWindowRoot.doMouseButton(GWindowRoot.java:251)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.gwindow.GWindowManager.doMouseButton(GWindowManager.java:69)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.engine.GUIWindowManager.msgMouseButton(GUIWindowManager.java:126)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.rts.MsgMouse.invokeListener(MsgMouse.java:98)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.rts.Message._send(Message.java:1217)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.rts.Message.sendToObject(Message.java:1191)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.rts.Message.sendToArray(Message.java:1147)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.rts.Message.sendTo(Message.java:1128)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.rts.Message.trySend(Message.java:1115)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.rts.Time.loopMessages(Time.java:180)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.rts.RTSConf.loopMsgs(RTSConf.java:101)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.game.MainWin3D.loopApp(MainWin3D.java:131)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.game.Main.exec(Main.java:439)
[18:24:10] at com.maddox.il2.game.GameWin3D.main(GameWin3D.java:235)
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Small editing of ModAct 6.01 for start 4.13.1.
https://www.mediafire.com/download/tbeglnalz37q372/%214131Fix.zip
Also at me SAS EngineMOD for 4.13.1 is almost ready
Asura, Thank You for the ModAct fix.
The game no longer crashes on startup but the load screen still says RC4 WITH ModAct 6.01 and everything is now in Russian.
How can I get back to English and should the load screen say 4.13.1?
Thanks.
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Go in the i18n folder, and copy the different properties files (for example gui.properties, etc) somewhere else. Adde them a _ru (for example, gui.properties becomes gui_ru.properties, etc) and put them back in i18n (of course, save the original _ru ones somewhere), and your game will be in english (I made it for French using the _fr ones).
This made, loading screen will still say that you are in RC4, but this is not very important (to me at least...).
Other problem is that even if the game loads without problem, when I launch a QMB mission, it loads up to 100 %, and nothing more. I have to "kill" the game, forcing it to stop with the task manager. Or, if with some planes, the mission loads and is playable, it is when I want to go out of it that the same problem happens... seems the ModAct is not 100 % ready...
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Guys, it is quickly collected fix. He shouldn't apply for full-fledged ModAct. I can't check work on international versions, I have only RU. But to make rather quickly new ModAct not a problem. :) We only should coordinate work.
4.13RC4 I just haven't changed :) Real ModAct should be made, ottestirovat and already then really to use. To make I don't see any problems.
I think we together with colleagues we will be defined how to put development in motion and to go further. ;)
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Thank you for this pack !
But...
And precisely you put on 4.13.1? I have a suspicion that there isn't enough fb_3do28.SFS
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Thank you for this pack !
But...
And precisely you put on 4.13.1? I have a suspicion that there isn't enough fb_3do28.SFS
Sorry I do not understand !
It is 4.13.1 "stock" !
I never use M.A. !
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Thank you for this pack !
But...
And precisely you put on 4.13.1? I have a suspicion that there isn't enough fb_3do28.SFS
The amendment is a mistake in 4.13.1. Thanks for a signal :) It is fixable.
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Ton414 just released a Modact for 4.13.1
http://freeil2modding.free-forum.net/mod-activator-for-4-13-1m-vt3969.html
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If it bleeds... we can kill it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlicWUDf5MM
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Update:
I've been messing around with 4.13.1 in this new Modact, and so far it seems that everything that has worked for me in 4.13RC04 is working here. I'll try to compile a list of mods that I've gotten working soon.
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I'm curious for one thing, as I'm still in 4.10 and those guys just released 4.13.1. Have been following all the dust generated, so what most of the users here use in terms of official patch and mod pack?
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Unfortunately the new DT team is also connected by obligations about not disclosure as well as old.
(...)
I will bring 100% to the final of work on adaptation of key spendthrifts, such as SAS EngineMOD.
(...)
I have completely ready AI Flyables Pack under 4.13.1.
(...)
Now with pleasure I pass the dynamic campaigns Motorhed on assembly for version 4.13.1. Everything that is made in mods everything works.
Asura, please explain:
You're saying that you cannot share original TD sources with us because you're bound to their rules telling that you must not do so.
At the same time you're talking about yourself happily carrying over things that you got access to from a closed modding group at SAS.
A group where the simple, single rule in there says: "What's in here stays in here."
In a nutshell, you don't obey our rules and carry over what you got here, while at the same time you ask for our understanding that you cannot share anything back because you have to obey TD's rules.
That's disrespectful, silly and plain simple disgusting.
Precisely nothing prevents to transfer me some parts (procedures) of classes which are mistakenly decompiled.
That's not an issue and you know it.
We got around any decompiler errors years ago already and you know it.
You try to make yourself look like you're ready to cooperate, while at the same time you offer: Nothing.
Perfect TD style of "cooperation", you've been fully assimilated as it seems.
It is ready to discuss other aspects of cooperation.
Fine, so I'll take the liberty to provide a non-exhaustive list of things that you can provide to the modding community because these things plain and simple hamper modding at the moment.
They're TD's property and you have access to it:
- We need a complete filelist of all contents in all SFS archives including files.sfs.
- We need a description of the mach drag parameters added to flight models and the tools and/or formulas to create those parameters.
- We need a description of the ballistic table parameters added to weapons and the tools and/or formulas to create those parameters.
- We need the tools to generate binary mesh files.
- SFS archive creators, including files.sfs, would be great but are not essential. I know you won't give them to us anyway.
- Sources of TD.dll need to be unveiled without fuss or quibble.
TD.dll naturally cannot fall under any non-disclosure agreement with 1C, so there's no excuse not to share the code.
In it's current state, TD.dll is nothing but an attempt to keep the modding community from modding anything touched by that native library.
It's an open war declaration to the modding community unless the sources become available.
More request will follow, but first it's time for you to show that you're really willing to cooperate.
If you don't share anything with us and instead fall back into telling us excuses, I'll reserve the right to revoke your access to our internal sources too.
Best regards - Mike
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- Sources of TD.dll need to be unveiled without fuss or quibble.
TD.dll naturally cannot fall under any non-disclosure agreement with 1C, so there's no excuse not to share the code.
In it's current state, TD.dll is nothing but an attempt to keep the modding community from modding anything touched by that native library.
It's an open war declaration to the modding community unless the sources become available.
More request will follow, but first it's time for you to show that you're really willing to cooperate.
If you don't share anything with us and instead fall back into telling us excuses, I'll reserve the right to revoke your access to our internal sources too.
Best regards - Mike
... and TD's reply is .................................... ? :-X
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Asura hasn't been online yet to read it, let's be fair.
Best regards - Mike
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I would also say and mean it: Asura, whatever he is urged to think about as part of a priviledged SAS forum section, may have a phenomenon going on here which is called "diverging interests": As an SAS modder with superb access he truly 'may' be willing to help us aka the modding community here (not that SAS is the representative of the modding chaps, but I hope you know what I meant) and as a TD member he may be urged to deal with TD guidelines.
I hope this is not the case and that both activities allow the chap to help us aka a part of the modified IL-2 community fanbase, to profit from his connections without any hidden traps or 2nd thoughts.
BTW I like the unified Crimea Kuban map area as a humble modder chap-.
Chrs
Tom ster
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diverging interests
That does not excuse the fact that he ignored the rule not to share internal modding files with others while at the same time he asks for understanding that alleged limitations would keep him from sharing back anything with us.
The 4.13.1 java code clearly shows that Asura carried over a couple of code fixes introduced with Modact 6, which change a set of pretty funny code annoyances that have been in all previous TD patches from 4.10 onwards.
He couldn't get this from decompiling code since all known decompilers fail on that part of code.
He plain simply took it from our sources, something he's not willing to give access to in return.
If Asura was that much about obeying rules and if this diverging interests were so tensing, why did he grab that code parts and thereby ignored the rule he clearly agreed to in the first place?
Best regards - Mike
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*bump*
For the sake of completeness, here is Modact 6.1: https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,51012.0.html
Best regards - Mike
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*bump*
For the sake of completeness, here is Modact 6.1: https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,51012.0.html
Best regards - Mike
Thank you Mike Storebror !! (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-eatdrink004.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
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diverging interests
That does not excuse the fact that he ignored the rule not to share internal modding files with others while at the same time he asks for understanding that alleged limitations would keep him from sharing back anything with us.
The 4.13.1 java code clearly shows that Asura carried over a couple of code fixes introduced with Modact 6, which change a set of pretty funny code annoyances that have been in all previous TD patches from 4.10 onwards.
He couldn't get this from decompiling code since all known decompilers fail on that part of code.
He plain simply took it from our sources, something he's not willing to give access to in return.
If Asura was that much about obeying rules and if this diverging interests were so tensing, why did he grab that code parts and thereby ignored the rule he clearly agreed to in the first place?
Best regards - Mike
... no wonder we still have no reply from Asura, Mike, since you keep asking the "good" questions ... :P
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Thanks Storebror for making this update useable -probably still prefer my CUP installation though....
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Sorry if this question is out of place, but what's td.dll?
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TD = Team Daidalos. ;)
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what's td.dll?
A typo :D
In fact the filename is dt.dll.
Best regards - Mike
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... no wonder we still have no reply from Asura, Mike, since you keep asking the "good" questions ... :P
We do have a reply meanwhile, it's just that Asura refrained from replying publically and asked to keep it private for the simple reason of:
He's not gonna give us anything.
Not because he cannot, but because he doesn't want to.
Because the poor TD had to suffer oh so many insults from the modding community, boo-hoo *sniff*.
Someone who intentionally violated the single simple rule of a closed modding community here is now playing the victim because the modders call out TD for deliberately fucking up modding with each and every patch.
Isn't that funny?
It is, in a way.
Same old with TD every time, it's like groundhog day.
Best regards - Mike
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the more things change, the more they stay the same....
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... no wonder we still have no reply from Asura, Mike, since you keep asking the "good" questions ... :P
We do have a reply meanwhile, it's just that Asura refrained from replying publically and asked to keep it private for the simple reason of:
He's not gonna give us anything.
Not because he cannot, but because he doesn't want to.
Because the poor TD had to suffer oh so many insults from the modding community, boo-hoo *sniff*.
Someone who intentionally violated the single simple rule of a closed modding community here is now playing the victim because the modders call out TD for deliberately fucking up modding with each and every patch.
Isn't that funny?
It is, in a way.
Same old with TD every time, it's like groundhog day.
Best regards - Mike
... so, "poor" DT prefers to keep suffering from more "insults" to come, rather than make peace with the community and stop that childish sabotage attitude they've been having so far, patch after patch ... :-X
They have absolutely no excuse to refuse to share their Dll code, it's got nothing to do with the contract they alledgely signed with 1C Games, except that if they did, we would have plenty of proof that the main goal of that dreaded Dll is to pork a modder's life ...
You know what, Mike ...?
I really wish HaDeS was still around, he, for sure, would naturally have found the right words to qualify that attitude of the "official tooolz" owners ... :D
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The answer is to just carry on developing modded 4.12.2
What can be imported from the new patch will be.
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They have absolutely no excuse to refuse to share their Dll code
Exactly, that's why in case of the dt.dll code Asura reverts to playing the victim card.
It's the same old game they play, trying to waste our time and continuously trying to make people believe that what they do is just a natural consequence of their constraints.
It would have been as simple as providing the source code with no strings attached, in the same way like they grabbed content from the modding community and took it for granted for years.
But TD doesn't want to give anything back, they want to hamper modding because they want to have control over the further development of the game and they think they'd be better off when they're the only ones developing it further, neglecting the simple truth that without a thriving modding community this game would have died years ago and TD would never have existed in the first place.
I really wish HaDeS was still around, he, for sure, would naturally have found the right words to qualify that attitude of the "official tooolz" owners ... :D
Rest assured these words have been spoken directly to the right recipient already, I'd repeat them here but that'd be against the rules :D
The answer is to just carry on developing modded 4.12.2
Correct, let's not allow TD to waste our time anymore.
Best regards - Mike
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the TD guys seem to act oblivious to all the hard work that is undone by hundreds of people with these code changes, and i think it's more than fair for many people in the mod community to be upset by this, more than justified - consider the total amount of work and man-hours that have yet again been laid to waste by these changes - they seem to think this is acceptable collateral damage, in order to be able to use their new stuff - now they focus on us being upset and not responding well to this, again trying to shift the focus off what they've done, and try to make it look like the evil, ungrateful modders are to blame for all that is not well in the IL-2 world.
i have already spoken more than i intended to in this thread, anything i need to say has been said. no more from me, at least.
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I've said it before, I'll say it again! 412.2m and CUP is the way forward. Let's import whatever looks interesting from 413.1, and stop wasting our time with egotistical wannabes...
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they seem to think this is acceptable collateral damage, in order to be able to use their new stuff
If at least that "new stuff" was all that new and if it'd be working correctly.
As SaQSoN put it right here (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=713011&postcount=21):
lack of supervision and determination, which brought quality of the latest release to an amature modder quality sub-standard level
A pure waste of airplane slots for minor and partly non-functional modifications, like the I-153M-63 (wooohooo! no big lower exhaust pipes! sure worth an extra slot eh?), two more R-5 variants (unfortunately with gunners working at will), and a couple of He 111 changes that break existing missions and don't work right (e.g. the H-11, with cockpit holes when you turn your head left in wide FOV view and with a right waist gunner that only works when new years eve and eastern fall to the same date).
"Locomotives valve gear and other chassis animation."
Is this your application for development of EEP (https://eepshopping.de/index.php?lang=2) mods?
Great "new stuff" TD.
The time you've wasted implementing code changes intended to fuck up modding would have much better been spent in some kind of quality control.
But who needs quality control when you're "uber" and you have "da toolz"?
Best regards - Mike
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My version of IL-2 is the GOG version which installs to 4.13, but then the download includes a 'downgrade' patch which converts 4.13 ->4.10. I then apply the 4.12.2 megapatch , before installing mods...
I don't know if the Steam version is the same.
Are TD likely to want to thwart distribution of the downgrade patch, now so new users are stuck in 4.13??? I do hope not.
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I've said it before, I'll say it again! 412.2m and CUP is the way forward. Let's import whatever looks interesting from 413.1, and stop wasting our time with egotistical wannabes...
+2
Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
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I don't think anyone who could see the damage that was being done to the modding community ever doubted that we would reach this point one day, the only question was when. Looking at the latest offering , TD is a spent force, a dead weight holding the community back....... by effectively holding it to ransom. It looks like the talent that once developed their more interesting ideas has long gone.
This is a pivotal moment, and it's consequences could be far reaching. For modders it provides a firm base from which to develop new ideas and content, without wasting time reworking/correcting existing mods each time a deliberate code change is introduced. For the community it means that there will be far fewer if any compatibility problems and effectively only one game version..... 409 rebels accepted of course.
The ball is in TD's court so to speak, but then it always was. They have always hated the perceived competition that a thriving community presented to their complete control of any further development and I doubt they could change even if they wanted to.
So, I tip my hat to the new constitution.... Cheers
https://www.youtube.com/embed/1XLMo524tPs
G;
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Asura has crossed the lines - he really thinks we are a bunch of stupid kids.
The first answer must be cracking the DT.dll and incorporating its content into 4.12
it must be a priority
From a dirty look inside the files, this dll interacts with the AI, the FM and the trackIR system:
com_maddox_il2_ai_air_AirGroup_groupLove
com_maddox_il2_ai_air_Pilot_doFighterDefense
com_maddox_il2_ai_air_Pilot_doStormovikDefense
com_maddox_il2_ai_air_Pilot_doTransportDefense
com_maddox_il2_fm_FMMath_nInit
com_maddox_il2_fm_FMMath_nInitSeed
com_maddox_il2_fm_FlightModel_nCreateSubSkills
com_maddox_il2_fm_FlightModel_nDanCoeff
com_maddox_il2_fm_FlightModel_nFullPants
com_maddox_il2_fm_FlightModel_nLandAvoidance
com_maddox_il2_fm_FlightModel_nSD
com_maddox_il2_fm_FlightModel_nShakeMe
com_maddox_il2_fm_FlightModel_nShootingPoint
com_maddox_il2_fm_FlightModel_nSmackMe
com_maddox_il2_fm_Wind_SetWind
com_maddox_opengl_util_ScrShot_getScreenShot
com_maddox_rts_TrackIRWin_nCreateDT
com_maddox_rts_TrackIRWin_nDTVersion
com_maddox_rts_TrackIRWin_nDestroyDT
com_maddox_rts_TrackIRWin_nGetAnglesDT
The DLL itself seems to be obfuscated in some way as both VB decompilers and NET decompilers do not recognize it, although by renaming it 7z instead of dll, one can see that the structure is a classic Windows Portable Executable.
I'm sorry that this is the limit of my computing knowledge, but we have quite a number of professionals here, and I'm sure that they can find a way to decompile it or bypass it.
The second step is of course to identify the still unidentified 25% content of the files.sfs archive
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I can't understand, why the SAS still argues with TD. In this way SAS assigns a part to TD, that TD has lost for quite some time: to serve the community on the whole. So:
The answer is to just carry on developing modded 4.12.2
Best regards
der Blaubär
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I've said it before, I'll say it again! 412.2m and CUP is the way forward. Let's import whatever looks interesting from 413.1, and stop wasting our time with egotistical wannabes...
also +1
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In fact the filename is dt.dll.
Best regards - Mike
Thanks! But what does the dt.dll do?
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In fact the filename is dt.dll.
Best regards - Mike
Thanks! But what does the dt.dll do?
... basically, it porks a free modder's/player's life, by rendering many previously perfectly working mods, totally incompatible with the new patch ... :-X
Technically, since I am totally incompetent, you'd better read this ... ;)
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/D/DLL.html
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I thank and congratulate the author of the code that allows to run the locomotives wheels!
This code works fine in 409. :)
I am surprised that the procedure "danger" is empty. It works very well in the pack of wcat's trains.
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... well in fact, ladies & gents, Epervier is too modest to reveal that "danger" is a new nightly java class he made to allow a SAS loco driver to automatically switch off his lights, whenever the dreaded DT DLL is flying around at night ... :P
What's funny is that DT borrowed that new class and put it in the ... "Wagon.class", where it does ... nothing ...! o_O
I can now confirm that Epervier's "danger" class and new DT's moving wheels can perfectly work together, which after FM's Sunderland, is another proof that when cooperation is under way ... ;)
But well, that's another story ... :D
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com_maddox_il2_fm_FlightModel_nFullPants
com_maddox_il2_ai_air_AirGroup_groupLove
And these at Bananaforum smacked and banned me for less offensive ideas.
Where is that Yuri who banned me, now that we can have full pants and group love
I really insist in getting the ashtray Mod for the Galland Pimp Bf109 Cockpit.
com_maddox_il2_fm_FlightModel_nSmokeMe
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IL2 ashtray mod ?
(http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/KEcAAOSwDNdVlXU9/s-l225.jpg)
;)
G;
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A solid piece
Priceless
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I have begun to notice many people installing into their modded 4.13 games
airplanes that only flew when using the 4.09 game-version o_O
Has DT and this patch-413 gone backwards in game coding?
I dont understand.
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I have begun to notice many people installing into their modded 4.13 games
airplanes that only flew when using the 4.09 game-version o_O
Hi ! I did not notice, probably because I don't use my 4.13 install for now ; but I remember that the same thing happened with 4.12. Some mods for 4.10/4.11 had lost compatibility with 4.12 new code, but 4.09 versions could be used without problem. But it may rise another question, about compatiblity between 4.09, 4.12 and 4.13 :D
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That's because 4.09 was the last patch before TD, so it's the last "not fucked up" patch for modders.
4.09 comes along with a lot less methods inside the core game's java classes, so the planes for 4.09 lack a couple of functionalities introduced later by TD.
That would be a plus for later mods when there wasn't TD's constant way of fucking up all existing code to introduce minor new features.
That's why the more functions you use, like e.g. planes depending on EngineMod/Jetwar which use anything the game has to offer and beyond, the more you are at risk of having to rewrite all code from scratch when TD brings out the next patch, because they will mess around with anything that's been taken for granted before.
Best regards - Mike
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So basically 4.09 mods have the potential to be universally compatible? Neat :)
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No, never said so.
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... someone with the necessary skills and knowledge should someday list all TD's code changes that fucked up our previously stable modded games, just to show the sceptics what TD brought to us ... too ... :-X
It all started with patch 4.10, and its now world famous alleged buttons "typo" (all 0 (zeros) turned into O (letter O)...) :P
But this was a really amateurish start, then with 4.11, TD really "improved" the content of its latest patch and so on ... >:(
I sometimes dream (less and less often, as time elapses ...) what our beloved game/sim would look like, had TD behaved in a much less childish and agressive way ...
Hopefully, nobody would wonder what is the best version/pack to use, because there would only be one version, made of TD's "official" patches, enriched with all "free" (read, not under contract with 1C Games, like TD allegely is) modders content ...
After all, this is what we used to have, in the ancient times, when Maddox Games released patches, a one size fits all version of the game, and nobody complained about it ... ;)
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In a software developer's world, "backward compatibility" goes without saying.
You can invent whatever you like when you roll out a new software version, but for heaven's sake it has to be backward compatible.
It's as simple as that.
Would TD have sticked to this simple rule that has been accepted for decades all around the globe, nobody would ever have had to argue about their patches, we'd have at least twice as many active modders as we have today (countless modders left the scene for being sick and tired of having to rework their mods with each and every new TD patch seeing the light of day) and all existing mods would work indefinitely as long as they don't alter base game classes.
Sure, there'd be those massive mods like "Engine Mod" or "Visual MOD" that very closely interact with the game and have to change base game classes for that reason, those mods would still need to be maintained, but that's feasible.
The current status is that every mod is put to question when a new patch arrives, and that's inacceptable.
Add to that, the statements above only address the aspects of accidentally breaking backward compatibility.
What really freaks out the modding community is the fact that TD does so intentionally, massively, constantly.
That's what drives nail after nail in the coffin, it kills TD themselves, it kills the modding community, it kills the game.
Best regards - Mike
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Just out of curiosity, why aren't SAS's tools open source in a public repository? It seems like they are placing themselves on morally unstable ground by using the same tactics of deception that TD allegedly uses.
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using the same tactics of deception
What?
Partly the tools are open source already, e.g. the Selector is available on sourceforge and the SAS Common Utils even ship with sources included.
Those sources that are not available plain straight to "everyone" are available to all active modders at SAS.
No request to share a particular mod's sources has ever been rejected here as far as I know, quite opposite, we introduce new modders into the source code repositories and teach them to work with original sources instead of the endless decompile->modify->compile chains.
Best regards - Mike
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Then how is TD "stealing" if it's all open sourced? Is any of it licensed with an open source license such as gpl? (particularly the tools)?
Also source forge isn't an incredibly great place to be hosting code due to their own tactics of deception and general animosity towards the open source community. However that is sort of beside the point as where you host your code isn't extremely relevant as long as you are hosting it publicly.
Allowing modders access to your tools isn't the same as having those tools open source, BTW. That's free as in beer, not free as in freedom, as your end user isn't allowed unrestricted access to the source code.
Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk
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But you do get the difference between "available to all who need it" and "strictly obfuscated from any further access", don't you?
And you do get that we're not into copyright issues and "stealing" isn't a legal term here, yes?
If so, what exactly are you trying to imply?
Best regards - Mike
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@ flyingfisch
Thank you for your input, however your comments are designed to mis-represent the situation and are irrelevant to the real issue here.
SAS supports the modding community, helps modders develop new ideas and has always acted to counter the deliberate actions of TD - who intentionally seek to thwart those who introduce new content to the game.
Just to make sure we are on the same page and before you try and defend their actions, it should be remembered that there is no practical need/requirement/necessity for TD patches to introduce malicious code changes. ........ none ... zero ... zip ... nada ....... ;)
This issue is not one of our making, so perhaps your questions would be better directed at TD .. if your interest in this matter is genuine that is .... ;)
BTW. That's free as in beer, not free as in freedom, as your end user isn't allowed unrestricted access to the source code.
BTW I have absolutely no idea WTF this is meant to mean .... :-|
G;
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I guess what I'm saying is this sort of stuff has no reason to be copyrighted IMHO since no one makes money from it and it seems kind of arbitrary to only allow modders access to the source code if in fact you are concerned about the future of il2.
I do understand that there could be philosophical reasons you wouldn't want to do this though.
In any case, I'm not taking either side here. I'm just curious why the source code is only available to SAS approved modders. What if another site wanted to start a mid that you didn't approve of? From what I understand these tools would not be made available to them. To me this seems like modders are placing their own egos and desire for recognition above the future of the game, and also the end users of the game.
I could be totally wrong about this, and I'm definitely not saying that's how it is. I'm just saying that is my perception.
Also, "free as in beer" refers to software that is released for free but without source code and rights to modify and redistribute. "Free as in freedom" refers to the software that gives the end user editing and redistribution rights, usually with a license such as GPL, or a creative commons free software license.
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Edit: just realized I misread storebror's post. I am aware of your first point, but the fact that we aren't arguing over legal copyright issues is something that I was not aware of. Most of the points in this post still stand though.
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@Flyingfisch
I have no idea what your intentions are or what you are seeking to achieve, however, I think you seriously need to talk to TD first, discuss with them their intentions and attitude towards the modding community, then come back and re-read this entire thread. Once you have taken time to carefully consider the comments in it, I hope you may have a more informed viewpoint .
Then, given your new insight, perhaps you can explain the reasons behind their actions to the rest of us...... :P
....... Otherwise, sadly, your current line of discussion is simply "background noise" to what those of us who mod this game see as a far more important issue..... ;)
G;
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GJE52: I see now that I popped into a pretty heated discussion with a lot of back story that I'm not familiar with. Let me try to answer your two questions.
I'm just a flight sim enthusiast, somewhat new to the il2 scene. I have not made any il 2 mods, though I have made mods for other flight simulators like flight gear. I am also a web developer by trade (though I also dabble in other disciplines like hardware hacking and writing console apps), and contribute somewhat regularly to open source projects. I am also a huge fan of free and open source software, and an very happy that il2 runs in wine since I only have Linux on my box.
As for what I want to achieve: coming from the open source side of modding with flight gear, where practically everything is on github and GPLed, I was slightly put off by the fact that much of the modding tools and mods themselves both here and at 1C/TD are distributed in zip files on media fire or an equivalent, and that the source code repositories are not public. Not having a public version control repository discourages collaboration in my opinion, and it also allows great mods to be lost when the modder's hard drive is in some way compromised. I've seen that happen both here and elsewhere.
Anyway, I'm starting to go off on a tangent. The main thing is that I'm curious why there isn't a public source control repo since I think it would greatly help the future of il 2. I don't really have any intentions to achieve anything though, because I don't really care what you guys want to do with your code. You own it, after all.
Like I said, I am just curious, is all. ;)
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Personally I learned to enjoy stock game from 4,12 and onwards. I have learned to just accept TD policy toward modding society as life irony. Anyway I always have one stock latest install and 2 or 3 others modded ones.
There is never going to be any agreement between any fraction within IL 2 community , so I just try to enjoy everyone´s work and leave it like that
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I'm somewhat agree with flyingfisch, although the last time that I tried to develop something was around 2005, It was for Combat Flight Simulator 3, one thing that I always liked about the microsoft sims was their release of an SDK (Software Development Kit) it really gives the oportunity to inspire and give directions to the new or wannabe modelers and modders (like me ;D).
Maybe a good set of things to keep the development of the simulator and increase the number of new modders (New blood is essential) and reduce the "fragmentation" would be.
1-Keep the development of new mods with 4.12.2 as a definitive base.
2-Support initiatives like CUP with a strong stability and ease of use in mind...for example I like the vpmedia's approach of his VP Modpack, where only high quality mods are included the FPS are great, and the old campaigns work without a glitch. (with this all the users are unified and nobody is left behind (specially those with low end pc's), a strong user base is the key, to win popularity and bring new blood to the simulator, and maybe new tools.
3-This maybe difficult, but maybe it's time to start documenting and making public via tutorials and well writen documents, how to make a MOD (with the latest techniques and standars for the sim) with the guidelines of SAS, with this specially the younger ones will keep the ball rolling.
And for the problem with TD...Let them be...If the ways of reason, unity and greater good didn't get them no thing in this world will convice them of effective cooperation.
Man I been reading this forum from the shadows for more than two years, and I'm convinced of two things, one...we have really a lot of great and smart people here in SAS, two cooperation can achieve a lot of things. As a community we must to stay strong and united...for me the enemy is not Team Daidalos is the close architecture philosophy that some software companies use to get even the last penny of our pockets...we must keep Il2 1946 alive or the future will be that of minitransactions, and unmoddable simulators where they even will charge us for the gas of our Messerschmitts our Mustangs and our Yak's.
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Sorry to interrupt, but who is TD exactly? Is that who "took over" on IL-2 after Oleg moved on, or something like that?
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Okay I'll try to answer a couple of questions that came up during the past 12 hours:
4.12.2 as a base: Done. That's exactly what we're doing.
CUP / VP modpack / stable base: This is exactly what we're currently trying to establish. Thanks for these suggestions Aioros, you see we're exactly on the same page here.
Cooperation: I have to second that and you can see from the Sunderland that within a manageable dimension, this works fine. Modding can overcome barriers, but this is a tender plant and we learnt from the past that any official interference will just kill the well working cooperation that takes place on lower levels already.
Open Source: When talking to me personally, you preach to a converted, however we must accept that not everyone shares the same idea.
Nevertheless, when talking about source availability, IL-2 modding separates into 3 sections:
1.) Java Code: This is accessible already for the simple fact that you can decompile all existing Java Code that you find in IL-2 and you'll get back 99% working and pretty much literally precise code as it was used by the creator, just lacking the comments. We could keep you from decompiling our Code (like Zuti did with his MDS mod), but we don't. The tools for getting the Java Classes out of the game a publically available, keywords for a search are "classdumping" and "classresolver".
2.) 3D files, textures etc.: All available already in their original format, should these files reside within SFS archives we have the "SFS Extractor" available publically at SAS.
3.) Native Code: If we do it, you will get sources available in public. All other native code, be it from 1C/Maddox or later from TD has not been disclosed. That's one of the big issues for modding, the second big issue is the intentional changes to existing Java Code in order to break existing mods with each and every patch from TD, that's what this thread mainly deals with.
Code Repository disclosure: Thanks for the suggestion. Our current Repository contains both "work in progress" code and "final release" code. While the latter qualifies for public availability, the first would create a whole lot of issues if it became publically available, "stealing" (in terms of intellectual property) and "maintainability" are just two of them. Nevertheless I'll put the idea of a public repo for final codes aside for later reconsideration.
Tools: As mentioned above, IL-2 specific tools are publically available already (class dumping, resolving, hashing, SFS extraction etc.), other tools you can download for free (e.g. Eclipse for Java Class compilation, or you can just use javac that ships with Oracle's JDK), others again you have to buy (Autodesk 3DS Max, GMax is a slightly less capable but free alternative for many 3D related tasks). We don't have any other tools on our shelf than what you see already.
Teaching modding: With our limited resources, we just cannot take each and every "maybe/wannabe" modder by the hand and guide him through all the basic steps personally. Instead we adopted a practice where potential modders have to show that they're willing and capable to learn modding by providing some kind of initial mod first, based on own initiative, before we invite them to a group of experienced modders who can teach them the tricks and ruses of more sophisticated mods for IL-2. If we'd open that gate publically, our experienced modders would find no time for own projects at all anymore, that's a no-go.
The bottom line is that we are as open as our limited resource allow us (putting the public final code repo aside for the moment).
What gets us upset is the fact that between TD and the modding community, this is a one-way street. We provide, we share. TD takes and gives back nothing.
And even more, they waste a great part of their energy on deliberately undermining IL-2 modding by implementing absolutely unnecessary code changes in each and every patch that serve no other purpose but to break existing mods, plus where they can't break them, they simply hide away their code in closed source native libraries (dt.dll).
That's an open war declaration against IL-2 modding and this is something we simply cannot and will not accept.
Best regards - Mike
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Exactly, take me, nobody here would benefit teaching me the Java, coding stuff. My Pal could do,
but he runs his business in R/L, his wife now pregnant, so it would cost him plenty time and nerves.
As a producer he helps me tweaking some Audio Files I do for pimping up the Me262 sound.
Since I lack any abillity, I rely on his freetime and will to help. We still need to do the the new Riedelstarter Sound.
Well, I started this when Anto released his Me262 Pack here. Quite a time, and I'm still not able to release.
Our Modders here have R/L too, at least I can't complain.
Apart from that I'm lacking basics of computer programming, just that I'm used to BF2 editing with Sandboxtools or in IL-2 with
crude skills, doesn't mean I have to be offered the Tools. I would steer around in corners trying to get a clue what it's all about.
I saw Threads of Java Coders, discussing their daily work, showcasing some stuff in screenies, how it looks.
Well, I got pretty scared, all the lines and binaries, well.
I have no clue what it's all about. In practice this means I can only tinker in Texteditor, tweak and try things out.
My skills are laid at arts and graphics in R/L, I can teach you Fontdesign, Freehand, Photoshop,
how to build a canvas, mix up oil colour without buying a ready tube.
I depend on other Modders, who share their time, knowledge, agree to catch up ideas, projects.
Basicly as a Modder I'm disabled, I need Help at 99% of the work. My input is thus very small.
Other way round too, so if a Modder asks me for kicking his project further, why not.
We help each other out, the best we can.
It may work as proposed for already gifted people, but wonderboys like me are an example here too,
that our way is somehow working. At least I get a chance to kick a project or two.
The few projects I did are not to be seen as my brainchilds, but a coorporation between Modders and me,
without whom, no Snippet would have ever seen the light. That's daily life here, I don't know what perfect Mod-Life is,
but from my point of view perfect is boring, please don't put me in such perfect shape.
I'm happy the way it is.
Kind Regards
Tobias
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why aren't SAS's tools open source in a public repository?
All the tools you need are publicly available. You just need to search, or ask.
I started modding around 2008. The first tools I used were sfs extractor and mshconvertor to extract an existing stock model and study its structure.
My first model was created using a stock model as a guide.
For model creation I use Max, Photoshop and TextPad --- not IL2 tools.
Export to IL2 format uses Maraz Exporter - a publicly available tool.
and Kumpfels Matrix Tool - a publicly available tool.
So Flyingfish, lack of publicly available tools is not a problem to you, so get modding. ;)
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Sorry to interrupt, but who is TD exactly? Is that who "took over" on IL-2 after Oleg moved on, or something like that?
TD or DT stands for "Daidalos Team" or "Team Daidalos". They are a group of modders (perhaps a dozen or so initially, possibly fewer now) who officially have exclusive rights to continue development of IL2:1946, mostly because they contacted Oleg/1c and asked for permission to do so.
Daidalos Team agreed to abide by certain rules and development restrictions which applied to the original game. The exact terms of their agreement with 1c are secret, but they have said that they are limited in the following ways:
* No content prohibited to the original IL2:1946 game due to the Northrop-Grumman consent decree with Ubisoft/1c. This means most American ships, and all Northrop, Grumman or Ryan aircraft are off limits. Furthermore, there can be no upgrades for Grumman aircraft which already exist in the game, so there will never be an "official" flyable TBF Avenger, no new Hellcat models, and the "official" Hellcat cockpits will always suck.
* Nothing that breaks the laws in a country where 1c/Ubisoft operates. This means no swastikas by default on Luftwaffe planes because the swastika is banned in Germany, and restricted in many other European countries.
* Polygon counts for ordinance, ground objects, aircraft, etc. must be limited to more or less conform to the original computer requirements to run the game. There has been some relaxation of the rules here, but basically any object developed for DT has to be relatively lower in polygons compared to mods.
* All new content must follow copyright restrictions. This means no porting objects, etc. from other games into IL2 without official permission from the copyright holder - even if it's another Ubisoft or 1c game. Maps must also use non-copyrighted textures, so no textures based on Google Maps or similar are allowed.
* All new content must be of equal quality to that included in the original game. This means no "franken-planes", no cockpits ported from other aircraft, no models with missing LoD (level of detail) models, shadow models, hooks, etc.
* Content must be focused on air combat from approximately 1939-45, although they're not against developing content for earlier or later conflicts from the 1930s to 1950s, like the Spanish Civil War or the Korean Conflict.
Because of their special relationship with 1c/Ubisoft, Daidalos Team got access to the original IL2: 1946 ver. 4.09 source code and development tools. Any updates that they release to the game represent legal, official, sanctioned content by 1c/Ubisoft, making the 4.13.1 version of the game the official "stock" version which, legally, everyone is supposed to be using.
It's quite likely that TD is required to take steps to defend 1c/Ubisoft's intellectual property rights, which means that might be forced to take steps to discourage "unauthorized use" of the IL2 source code by other mod teams - especially teams which are actually modifying IL2's game engine rather than just making graphic add-ons.
One of the most effective ways that they've found to discourage other modders is by making widespread changes to the code with each new update. This "breaks" most mods until modders can discover work-arounds or methods of "repairing" the DT code so that it's compatible with mods.
Initially, they "played nice" and made changes which were easy enough to detect and repair. With the 4.12 patch and later, however, they've been making their code much harder to repair, which causes massive headaches for modders and the folks who enjoy using mods.
The overarching problem is that there are far more "unofficial" modders than there are members of Daidalos Team, and "unofficial" modders work much faster than DT does to fix bugs in the stock game and to add new content. In many cases, content produced by "unofficial" modders equals or exceeds the quality of TD's work. Certainly mod packs like C.U.P., HSFX, and their predecessors add far more content, and fix far more problems with the stock game, than DT possibly could.
That leads to a situation where TD is no longer in a leadership position in the modding community, leaving many modders to wonder why TD still has "official" status.
Personally, I think that there are areas where TD does good work. They set high standards for themselves, even if they don't always meet them. Certainly, there are some TD members who seem like perfectly decent, honorable people. I've had good luck working with them, albeit in a very minor way.
On the other hand, it seems like other members of the team are abusing their authority, treating unofficial modders with contempt, and possibly stealing content from the unofficial modding community and calling it their own. That's some seriously bad stuff, and I don't blame the hard working high-level modders on this forum for blowing their stacks at Daidalos Team for what they've done.
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Many thanks to all for this interesting and informative thread....I'm a lot clearer about the subject now.
One question though.......
If in the future TD gives us access to all it's tools & development rights etc ....would it be possible for modders to make curved roads and moving cockpit shadows in our game.........I find the bar straight roads are the only thing the really irritate me in IL2 :-X
Cheers
Alfie
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Missions store waypoint coordinates for moving ground vehicles. They are quite frequently put on road and rail bendings both by mission designers and 3rd party campaign generators like DGEN and DCG. Curved roads would practicaly break all missions (even if solution were found to the problem how vehicles can be forced to follow curved route patterns), because many previously set coordinates would be offset.
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Quite a good summary, Pursuivant, we can also add, although nobody here has ever seen the allegely signed contract (renewed ...?) between DT and 1C Games, that DT cannot make any plane that is already included in CoD, like the Avro Anson, Wellington, Fiat Br20, to name a few ...
Same with the Channel/Northern France map ...
Hopefully, apart from the Anson, free modders have filled that gap ...
Also that the poly count barrier (3000 polys max per mesh, if my memory is good) dates back when IL2 was released, at a time when a 64 Mb graphics card was considered as "middle of the road", and a 128 Mb one was a must ...
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[quote author=Pursuivant link=topic=50987.msg556814#msg556814 date=1460537652]
[quote author=MrMojok link=topic=50987.msg556782#msg556782 date=1460520520]
Sorry to interrupt, but who is TD exactly? Is that who "took over" on IL-2 after Oleg moved on, or something like that?[/quote]
TD or DT stands for "Daidalos Team" or "Team Daidalos". They are a group of modders (perhaps a dozen or so initially, possibly fewer now) who officially have exclusive rights to continue development of IL2:1946, mostly because they contacted Oleg/1c and asked for permission to do so.
Daidalos Team agreed to abide by certain rules and development restrictions which applied to the original game. The exact terms of their agreement with 1c are secret, but they have said that they are limited in the following ways:
* No content prohibited to the original IL2:1946 game due to the Northrop-Grumman consent decree with Ubisoft/1c. This means most American ships, and all Northrop, Grumman or Ryan aircraft are off limits. Furthermore, there can be no upgrades for Grumman aircraft which already exist in the game, so there will never be an "official" flyable TBF Avenger, no new Hellcat models, and the "official" Hellcat cockpits will always suck.
* Nothing that breaks the laws in a country where 1c/Ubisoft operates. This means no swastikas by default on Luftwaffe planes because the swastika is banned in Germany, and restricted in many other European countries.
* Polygon counts for ordinance, ground objects, aircraft, etc. must be limited to more or less conform to the original computer requirements to run the game. There has been some relaxation of the rules here, but basically any object developed for DT has to be relatively lower in polygons compared to mods.
* All new content must follow copyright restrictions. This means no porting objects, etc. from other games into IL2 without official permission from the copyright holder - even if it's another Ubisoft or 1c game. Maps must also use non-copyrighted textures, so no textures based on Google Maps or similar are allowed.
* All new content must be of equal quality to that included in the original game. This means no "franken-planes", no cockpits ported from other aircraft, no models with missing LoD (level of detail) models, shadow models, hooks, etc.
* Content must be focused on air combat from approximately 1939-45, although they're not against developing content for earlier or later conflicts from the 1930s to 1950s, like the Spanish Civil War or the Korean Conflict.
Because of their special relationship with 1c/Ubisoft, Daidalos Team got access to the original IL2: 1946 ver. 4.09 source code and development tools. Any updates that they release to the game represent legal, official, sanctioned content by 1c/Ubisoft, making the 4.13.1 version of the game the official "stock" version which, legally, everyone is supposed to be using.
It's quite likely that TD is required to take steps to defend 1c/Ubisoft's intellectual property rights, which means that might be forced to take steps to discourage "unauthorized use" of the IL2 source code by other mod teams - especially teams which are actually modifying IL2's game engine rather than just making graphic add-ons.
One of the most effective ways that they've found to discourage other modders is by making widespread changes to the code with each new update. This "breaks" most mods until modders can discover work-arounds or methods of "repairing" the DT code so that it's compatible with mods.
Initially, they "played nice" and made changes which were easy enough to detect and repair. With the 4.12 patch and later, however, they've been making their code much harder to repair, which causes massive headaches for modders and the folks who enjoy using mods.
The overarching problem is that there are far more "unofficial" modders than there are members of Daidalos Team, and "unofficial" modders work much faster than DT does to fix bugs in the stock game and to add new content. In many cases, content produced by "unofficial" modders equals or exceeds the quality of TD's work. Certainly mod packs like C.U.P., HSFX, and their predecessors add far more content, and fix far more problems with the stock game, than DT possibly could.
That leads to a situation where TD is no longer in a leadership position in the modding community, leaving many modders to wonder why TD still has "official" status.
Personally, I think that there are areas where TD does good work. They set high standards for themselves, even if they don't always meet them. Certainly, there are some TD members who seem like perfectly decent, honorable people. I've had good luck working with them, albeit in a very minor way.
On the other hand, it seems like other members of the team are abusing their authority, treating unofficial modders with contempt, and possibly stealing content from the unofficial modding community and calling it their own. That's some seriously bad stuff, and I don't blame the hard working high-level modders on this forum for blowing their stacks at Daidalos Team for what they've done.
[/quote]
Thank you Pursuivant.
Anyway, I will continue doing (and enjoying) my little mod changes to this game for my pleasure.
I will continue sharing my stuff with the community and my good friends, even if that means breaking the official rules.
If I was going to conform to these "official rules", I might as well give up on the good times in life all-together. Become a grumpy
old man and start drinking wine and go feed the pigeons in the park :P
This old game gives me , and many of us aviation fans, the one thing we most enjoy and which we will never
be able to do in our lives, and that is , to FLY. - To fly and experience what it feels like to be at the controls of
a classic aircraft. THANK YOU Mister Oleg Maddox ! You are a brilliant man and we all admire and love you for
having created the IL2-1946.
Many of us don't particularly like flying, but they find their pleasure in creating maps landscapes, scene dioramas,
and doing so many other cool things with this game. It offers so much to everyone.
So I don't believe anyone will be stopping doing what they like best in life any sooner.
In my personal view-point, I believe that Team Daidalos should also be a group of cool people too, and understand the pleasures
this game gives to so many people. Try not to undermine the game-codes and make these bizarre changes they keep
doing just to break up the modded-game and its aircraft. Yes, they also do a nice job, but they also break up alot of peoples
good times.
This behavior in return just makes them more despised (than being loved and respected) by the entire aviation community.
This also makes many game-modding artists and skin-artists hold back their goodies from being shared to many
more people and the community. Many have just given up and left, sad to admit :(
This constant reaction of push-forward, pull-backwards, push forward, thing in the game development just
makes many people give up on the good times and thus making things go NOWHERE.
But I am not going to stop my good times, and I am not going to allow anyone to spoil my good times.
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why aren't SAS's tools open source in a public repository?
All the tools you need are publicly available. You just need to search, or ask.
I started modding around 2008. The first tools I used were sfs extractor and mshconvertor to extract an existing stock model and study its structure.
My first model was created using a stock model as a guide.
For model creation I use Max, Photoshop and TextPad --- not IL2 tools.
Export to IL2 format uses Maraz Exporter - a publicly available tool.
and Kumpfels Matrix Tool - a publicly available tool.
So Flyingfish, lack of publicly available tools is not a problem to you, so get modding. ;)
I would mod, I just don't have time at the moment. ;)
I know the binaries for the tools are available to anyone, my question was why the source code isn't. Note that I'm asking it off curiosity, not because I think there's anything inherently wrong with it.
That said, the philosophy that there is intellectual property in mods that could be "stolen" by opening the source code could probably be fixed by licensing the source with a license that requires attribution. I'm pretty sure no one makes money on these mods, so I don't see anything more than attribution being necessary.
As far as training modders goes, you don't have to guide them by the hand, you just need to make tutorials that are open to the general public without having to join forums or modding groups to view them.
Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk
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I'm pretty sure no one makes money on these mods, so I don't see anything more than attribution being necessary.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but you should really read a little before you make such statements.
Attribution actually is all we're about when it comes to "copyrights for mods", we call it "proper credits" and it's clearly written in our site rules which any user is supposed to have read.
As far as training modders goes, you don't have to guide them by the hand, you just need to make tutorials that are open to the general public without having to join forums or modding groups to view them.
"Just". Lol :)) Sorry.
I've made a couple of tutorials and I know what I'm talking about.
It takes about one week to make a good beginners tutorial for IL-2 Java modding.
Another week to make a tutorial for beginners about installing the programs and utilities required.
The latter becomes obsolete every half a year.
Once you publish the "fool proof" tutorials, the next 10 fools come around and proof you wrong in thinking it'd be "fool proof". That's another two weeks just for explaining the obvious to the first 10 readers.
While you're trying to get these 10 started, the next 20 come around with virtually the same questions.
Really I know what I'm talking of.
Anything but taking one modder at a time and guide him through it step by step will just drive you insane, that's all.
Concerning source code for IL-2 modding tools:
As explained before, many tools ship with sources.
But that's not the deal here.
We're talking about TD deliberately holding back anything that's required to mod the same parts of the game like they do.
They have "da toolz" and don't share them, period.
We're not even asking for the source code of these tools, we'd be happy already to have them at all.
See: We (modders) = Share all tools (also with TD), most of them with sources.
TD = Share nothing (no tools, no content, nothing), period.
Best regards - Mike
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As a modder who developed his skills at SAS step by step over some time, I fully agree with what has been said in the previous post. Creating additional content for IL2 requires 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration.... In reality, those who actually make the best modders are those who only need advice rather than be "lead by the hand"... ;)
* Polygon counts for ordinance, ground objects, aircraft, etc. must be limited to more or less conform to the original computer requirements to run the game. There has been some relaxation of the rules here, but basically any object developed for DT has to be relatively lower in polygons compared to mods
.. which is a function of the game engine, and so far is still a limiting factor. However, early models were very low poly as well as low res textured to run on what were then "middle of the road" machines .... (arguably not even good enough to qualify as "low end" machines these days). Things have moved on a long way .... and recent well crafted, "unofficial" ;) mods have shown that the poly barrier - although unchanged - does not stop the creation of visually acceptable models, especially when used with the newer 2048x2048 "high res" textures. It must also be noted that the significant effort that has gone into the development of flight characteristics to allow for the introduction of more modern aircraft has moved the original game to a whole new level.
This is the new reality .... you can't put the genie back in the bottle. Those who for whatever reason are trying by any means (but especially underhand tactics >:() to hold back this kind of natural progress cannot be unaware that their actions will eventually kill off the huge community following that this old game still commands.
G;
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Thanks Pursuivant, for the well thought-out response. Now I understand the situation. Thanks again to the whole SAS team for all your work.
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...and recent well crafted, "unofficial" ;) mods have shown that the poly barrier - although unchanged - does not stop the creation of visually acceptable models,
especially when used with the newer 2048x2048 "high res" textures.
G;
Yes indeed, very true. They can also use 4096x4096 textures in aircraft skins, all static-models and all maps, if the person wishes to use them.
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It takes about one week to make a good beginners tutorial for IL-2 Java modding.
Another week to make a tutorial for beginners about installing the programs and utilities required.
The latter becomes obsolete every half a year.
Once you publish the "fool proof" tutorials, the next 10 fools come around and proof you wrong in thinking it'd be "fool proof". That's another two weeks just for explaining the obvious to the first 10 reades.r
While you're trying to get these 10 started, the next 20 come around with virtually the same questions.
Really I know what I'm talking of.
I have the same experience with writing tutorials, both in Il-2 and outside its area.
It is simple as that:
PEOPLES DO NOT READ.
Aka RTFM .
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Not only that, Uzin. Some people just don't see the logic in things programmers see as logical. Etc. You may think you explained everything, but then someone discovers a hole, maybe his coputer doing shit, maybe the person made an error along the way and just did not notice - you see, people are not perfect.
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Some people just don't see the logic in things programmers see as logical.
Well written tutorial takes it on account.
When the tutorial takes only the programmers point of view on account, it is not well written.
Writing tutorials requres a bit other capabilities than programming alone.
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Quite a good summary, Pursuivant, we can also add, although nobody here has ever seen the allegely signed contract (renewed ...?) between DT and 1C Games, that DT cannot make any plane that is already included in CoD, like the Avro Anson, Wellington, Fiat Br20, to name a few ...
Same with the Channel/Northern France map ...
Actually, according to DT members on the "banana forum", neither of these things is true. Initially there was a block on such content, but since CloD failed as a commercial release the restrictions were lifted. As an example, notice that there is a Wellington III in the 4.12 patch.
Additionally, once upon a time there were restrictions on Korean War content, but since that project went by the wayside they have been lifted. (Of course, the NG consent decree makes an "official" IL2 Korean War add-on pretty much moot. Basically, almost no US Navy content.)
Also that the poly count barrier (3000 polys max per mesh, if my memory is good) dates back when IL2 was released, at a time when a 64 Mb graphics card was considered as "middle of the road", and a 128 Mb one was a must ...
Exactly. That's the reason for the 8- or 12-sided radial engine cowls and tires, and why the oldest models in the game, like the MiG-3, Ju-52, and IL-2, look like they got hit with the ugly stick.
The polygon count restrictions on aircraft are now a bit more flexible - up to about 3,500 for a large airplane, IIRC - but still quite low compared to a modern flight sim.
The advantage of this rule, however, is that you can put a lot of airplanes in the sky with even an bottom end 2016-era computer, and still get great FPS.
I also think that the polygon limit is a very good design policy, since it makes 3d artists work as hard as they can to eliminate redundant elements from their mesh. But, for some items - like ships and multi-engined airplanes - you just need to exceed the limits.
Going forward, I'm wondering if the best way to make the game look good isn't just higher resolution textures for everything. A detailed, good-looking skin can make a very simple mesh look good. Doubling the size of existing meshes (i.e., from 1024 x 1024 pixels to 2048 x 2048) would result in a quadrupled demand to the graphics processing unit, but graphics cards these days seem to be really good at serving up static graphical images without much strain. What really messes up graphics cards is dynamic 3d rendering, which means things like moving objects and particle effects.