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Individual Mod Downloads for IL-2 1946 => Other Mods => FM Discussions => Topic started by: Schwieger on November 19, 2011, 08:34:22 AM

Title: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Schwieger on November 19, 2011, 08:34:22 AM
Anyone else feel the Hellcat is slightly underpowered in the vertical vs its real life counterpart?  I know for example it could outclimb the Fw-190 A8 and the early to mid war zeros but it does neither in IL-2...

Thoughts?
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on November 19, 2011, 11:14:23 AM
If it is not the "stock" FM from IL-2 then it should match the climb performance data found here : http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f.html (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f.html)  fairly closely.  There is a lot of data there but it should average out the various charts. 

Regarding the Fw190 and A6M; What test data are you referring to?
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: BT~Tarik on November 19, 2011, 12:25:17 PM
I agree. I'm not flying the american "cats" so often, but sometimes when I jump in one to get a change from the german planes I reallt feel the difference, it's acceleration is not good, it doesn't give the feeling of power, like you'd have in a 190 D9 for example.
I don't look at airspeed that much, I prefer to have an idea of the speed with flyby view. And that's where I'm mostly noticing it.
But I could be wrong also, not sure at all. Just a feeling.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on November 19, 2011, 12:36:43 PM
As far as acceleration, the Fw190D9 has a better power to weight ratio and thus should have a better acceleration than the F6F.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: BT~Tarik on November 19, 2011, 02:18:41 PM
Yes yes I know, but the Hellcat should also have some feeling of power, and it hasn't IMHO. I just talked about the dora for an example of a plane with "powerfeeling", and didn't want to compare them.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on November 19, 2011, 05:42:26 PM
OK.   :)
I made the FM for the Ultrapack F6Fs (I think they are used in DBW also).  I primarily used the data from the website listed above, and I did some things to improve it's stability as a gun platform.  I didn't really look at acceleration.  It's a very subjective area of performance comparison, since there is little available data comparing acceleration rates AFAIK.  I remember that Kwiatek helped me tweak a couple of things.  I think the thing with acceleration is simply to make sure that each aircraft has an accurate power to weight ratio and then hopefully they will compare accurately.  I'm not sure, but I think the current FM for most of the 190s are "stock" Il-2 and not products of Kwiatek or other FM guru's.   
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Eexhaton on December 05, 2011, 06:18:37 AM
@Schwieger; I had the same feeling flying it, but more with the F4U's..

I even aborted the campaign with the Corsairs as the Zero's were superior no matter what tactics I applied.. :(
F6F feels rather slow and weak.

Not the "Iron Works" you hear in all the WWII stories about it.
Same goes for the ruggedness of the P-47 Thunderbolts.

But; it's a feeling, i'm curious to see what the FM specialists have to say about it.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Schwieger on December 05, 2011, 08:11:05 AM
Depends on what zero variant.. but because of F4Us speed I haven't had too much issue... but with regards to ruggedness... I've been blown up by one second burst from La-7 in the F4U... Now I know the F4U was supposed to be tough so I don't know where Oleg got his info that said La-7 could vapourize a Corsair with a one second burst... same goes for P-47, not as tough as it should be (ever watch dogfights? Lol)
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Pursuivant on December 05, 2011, 04:45:19 PM
I even aborted the campaign with the Corsairs as the Zero's were superior no matter what tactics I applied.. :(
F6F feels rather slow and weak.

Not to dismiss concerns about FM for the F6F and F4U, but the game really doesn't model several key American advantages - superior training, superior communications and superior teamwork.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Ribs on December 05, 2011, 06:08:54 PM
I concur about the F6F. One thing that I have always noticed is that it will never get above 300 mph in level flight - anybody else ever notice this? Regardless , still love flying that bird!
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on December 05, 2011, 07:11:17 PM
I concur about the F6F. One thing that I have always noticed is that it will never get above 300 mph in level flight - anybody else ever notice this? Regardless , still love flying that bird!

OK two things:
1) I just took out the F6F-3 Early - the one without WEP and got it over 310mph indicated airspeed while flying just above the waves.
2) I tried it with the F6F-3 Late and found that it went about the same speed.  This means that the F6F-3 Late is using the original, stock Il-2 FM and it is underpowered, under performs and doesn't fly very well.

DBW 1.6

I'm going to check UP3.0 RC4 later and see what happens.  My modified F6F-3 Late FM should be in there (and DBW) but so far it looks like it's not.

Edit:  OK I just tried UP3.0 RC4 with the same results.
This means that The F6F-3 Early is probably the only one in there that has my Modded FM.  ???  You should try it.  It's actually faster than the stock F6F-3 Late at most altitudes and it handles better too.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Schwieger on December 05, 2011, 07:32:15 PM
And what about F6F-5?
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: acred99 on December 05, 2011, 08:09:28 PM
To be honest I find nearly all the US fighters in the game to be of "VERY" poor performance. Most of them are flying death traps, with shit performance, apart maybe from the P-40's. The P-51 is like you are walking on a tight rope, spins, stalls, same with the Jug. I hardly ever fly them, but if you are up against the AI flying them, then they turn into super hero's and you can never catch them, they simply outpace you even on "rookie" mode. One of the biggest issues of the whole game in my opinion. I defected to the Japs years ago, been kicking ass ever since !
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on December 05, 2011, 09:11:59 PM
And what about F6F-5?

Just flew it.  Same problem.  Stock FM, shitty performance and handling qualities.
My recommendation: Until the FM issue gets worked out, fly the F6F-3 Early.  Even though it doesn't have WEP it will still have better speed and handling characteristics than any of the other Hellcats.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: sluggs on December 05, 2011, 09:24:39 PM
To be honest I find nearly all the US fighters in the game to be of "VERY" poor performance. Most of them are flying death traps, with shit performance, apart maybe from the P-40's. The P-51 is like you are walking on a tight rope, spins, stalls, same with the Jug. I hardly ever fly them, but if you are up against the AI flying them, then they turn into super hero's and you can never catch them, they simply outpace you even on "rookie" mode. One of the biggest issues of the whole game in my opinion. I defected to the Japs years ago, been kicking ass ever since !

LOL.

To tell you the truth, I agree with you. I think Oleg might have had a chip on his shoulder...

Anyway, how do the majority of the Japanese aircraft hold up? I rarely (if ever) fly anything besides the American aircraft, but I'd assume that a Zero would fly circles around just about any America war bird (so much so that I'm actually afraid to take on an AI-piloted Zero).
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on December 05, 2011, 09:58:17 PM
(so much so that I'm actually afraid to take on an AI-piloted Zero).

Don't be afraid, just use proper tactics.  I've shot down dozens of AI Zeros using the Hellcat/Corsair.
Always have an altitude advantage or a big speed advantage.  Dive in from behind and shoot at close range.  Very close.  Re-gain altitude smoothly.  Don't fight them at low altitude if you can avoid it because you can't dive away if they get on your tail.  If they get behind you, dive vertically and do at least a half roll in the dive.  Then pull out smoothly and run like hell.  Above all - don't turn with them.  Speed is life and Altitude is life insurance.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: santobr on December 06, 2011, 02:43:17 AM
I know this post is about F6F's, but I think it's the same problem about F4F-3 and A6M2-21.
When I try to dive, they reach me.
So my only choice is to dogfight with them.
Oddly, I can turn better than an ace Zeke AI.
I think this is not right, is it?

I flew in the server Zeke vs Wildcats and the F6F's has no chance against Zekes, because is impossible to H&R, they will reach you and, differently from AI, you can't dogfight with them, they turn very fast as expected.
Our only chance is to fly P-38 when available.

Well, I'm not a good pilot anyway, hehe. :P



santobr.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Eexhaton on December 06, 2011, 09:26:59 AM
There are certainly alot of "quirks" with the US planes..

I, for instance too, find the P-40's a joy to fly.
But employing the historical tactics with either F4U's, F4F, F6F - especially as said against Zeroes, it just won't work.
They keep up with you on almost all fronts, unless you have a severe speed+altitude advantage.
Ok; granted the AI Wingmen on my side always seem completely retarded - that is also a major factor, I guess.

It might be my bad piloting too, like Santo said ;D

My aircraft of choice on Hellcats is the F6F-3 early model, which even feels a bit 'off'..
Have'nt tried the F6F-5 as much yet. Only as a ground-pounder.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Schwieger on December 06, 2011, 12:41:39 PM
Zero seems to retain too much 'e,' but that is for another thread...lol
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Pursuivant on December 06, 2011, 12:46:48 PM
It seems to me that it ought be easy to get real life performance data for the U.S. fighters, since a number of them are still flying. Not so many Hellcats, Wildcats and Thunderbolts, but there are plenty of Corsairs and Mustangs out there and a fair number of P-40s.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Schwieger on December 12, 2011, 08:56:09 PM
Stratodog, do you have any plans for improved FMs?
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on December 13, 2011, 09:29:04 PM
Stratodog, do you have any plans for improved FMs?

Yes, my plan is to make sure that the next version of UP and DBW have the correct F6F FM version. (not the stock as it is now for all but the "Early")
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: santobr on December 14, 2011, 04:43:45 AM
Please, F4Fs too. :)



santobr.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Ribs on December 17, 2011, 07:59:26 PM
Stratodog, do you have any plans for improved FMs?

Yes, my plan is to make sure that the next version of UP and DBW have the correct F6F FM version. (not the stock as it is now for all but the "Early")

This would be greatly appreciated! Thank you for your efforts!
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: vanir on December 31, 2011, 04:16:05 PM
Oleg never included the WER settings of the P-40 or any of the Zeros and probably just imposed the same limitation on the grummans.
P-40s are missing about 300hp under 5-8000ft, Zeros are missing about 120hp for take off, etc.
It's a very big job to redress all these individual aircraft, as you do some the others all stand out more. Eventually the job is to go through every single FM in the entire sim/game using good info like the documentation at above mentioned site.

I no longer have time to be a modder, but when I've dipped into fm modding in the past, it was always a very huge task before anyone doing it. People have been working on it plane by plane for years, there are so many it is still going to take many years, we'll be old men when we finally say, ah IL2 is completely finished now :D

Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Pursuivant on December 31, 2011, 05:10:44 PM
Apparently, the F6F FM will be revised in the TD 4.12 patch.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: tater718 on January 02, 2012, 09:37:03 PM
The hellcat with the stock FM is a loser. Try flying the F6F-6 mod. You can pork it with fuel/stores to tweek it a bit. Works for me.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: santobr on January 03, 2012, 02:48:53 AM
4.12? ???

4.12 = 2013 :P



santobr.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: AntEater on January 03, 2012, 02:59:56 AM
I agree, better the FM gurus here cook something up than waiting for TD.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Eexhaton on January 03, 2012, 03:10:14 AM
Zero seems to retain too much 'e,' but that is for another thread...lol
Maybe it's not so much then that the US F4F and F6F need some tune-up, but the Zero series needs a bit of a tone-down aswell? (In terms of; getting looked into, the least)

:)
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Pursuivant on January 03, 2012, 09:25:32 PM
Zero seems to retain too much 'e,' but that is for another thread...lol
Maybe it's not so much then that the US F4F and F6F need some tune-up, but the Zero series needs a bit of a tone-down aswell? (In terms of; getting looked into, the least)

One of the things that U.S. pilots testing the first captured A6M2 noted was that it didn't have a constant flow carburetor, so the engine would cut out if you flew inverted for any period of time - just like the early Spitfire versions. AFAIK, that's not modeled in the game.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: sluggs on January 14, 2012, 09:09:22 AM
True, true. I'm not sure why it was left out, I've noticed that feature on other non-carburetor aircraft (mainly the MC 200).
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: AntEater on January 14, 2012, 10:05:14 AM
Zero seems to retain too much 'e,' but that is for another thread...lol
Maybe it's not so much then that the US F4F and F6F need some tune-up, but the Zero series needs a bit of a tone-down aswell? (In terms of; getting looked into, the least)

One of the things that U.S. pilots testing the first captured A6M2 noted was that it didn't have a constant flow carburetor, so the engine would cut out if you flew inverted for any period of time - just like the early Spitfire versions. AFAIK, that's not modeled in the game.

It is
At least in DBW
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: HolyViagra on January 19, 2012, 12:30:53 AM
Stratodog @ what fuel did you test your fm at.When you did your speed test.You have to remember american performance charts are all at 100% fuel and combat ready.The russians have a tendency to fib on there performance charts where they use 50% fuel on clean loadout and NO AMMO.Thats one of the reason why russian planes are over modeled in this sim.The hard data they put in is wrong. just to point that out. For Example the mighty I-185 which never saw action and was canceled the wing loading on that bird is 47lbs per square inch and the P-51D with 100 fuel and combat ready it is 39lbs per squad inch. why is wing loading so important becuase wing load will tell you at minimum turn speed and also @ corner velocity the plane will turn tighter and the radius of the circle will be smaller. But in this sim the P-51D could not stay in the turn even with both planes with same Engery State.But in reality the P-51D Has a lower wing loading and should be able to beat the I-185 in a Two Circle Dogfight.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on January 19, 2012, 10:22:39 AM
I always use 100% fuel for testing.  It would be a bit silly not to.  :)

I haven't flown the new 4.11 Hellcat yet.  Supposedly they did some work on the Hellcat FM.  I'm curious to see what you guys think of the new 4.11 Hellcats.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Schwieger on January 21, 2012, 03:58:18 PM
It does seem to perform better.  At least in climb.  I can't say for sure for the other characteristics, other than increased stabililty.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Sakai07 on January 21, 2012, 07:58:04 PM
It feels like all the US Navy fighters took a hit in acceleration, mainly in the low thick air during a CV takeoff. The F4U has seen the largest (hence most controversial) difference in performance between 4.10.1 and 4.11.  The F6F will take off from a CV with a full load of bombs and fuel when the ships moving at a good pace, so no complaints here.

She is more stable in mid-low speed turns, and the high speed roll rate is increased. As has been the case, the F6F is in it's element when making high speed turns, the way it is designed to kill Zeroes.

The F4F seems far slower in level flight then before, but this might just be from switching from faster planes to the F4F in the QMB. She is a most stable gun platform, and besides the acceleration/top level speed and the spring tab flaps, haven't noticed a huge difference.

To me, the F4U is slower in acceleration, but the top speed meets with performance data, so I really don't know where to stand on this one. One thing is for sure, she can handle sharp turns better then before. You can also (if you decide to blow your E like this) hang that bad boy on it's flaps in a knife fight if you really need to. With ords, she is as sluggish as a pregnant sow, which with the new parasitic drag modeling I expected. One thing is for sure, multiplied by the new (existent) engine management, you really need to keep your E once you get in in this bird, cause once it's gone, you aren't getting it back until you are out of that particular fight and can safely climb. Roll rate also seems increased at high speed.

I know this is an F6F thread, so I will at least contain my comments to US Navy fighters, am going to start a new thread (if one isn't already open) about thoughts on the new Fw-190 FM.  :)
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Pursuivant on January 22, 2012, 03:50:43 AM
According to Capt. Eric Brown (world record holder for most aircraft types flown, test-pilot extraordinaire) the F6F was his top choice for naval fighters, well ahead of the F4U. I've never been impressed by the F6F in IL2, but that could be because I'm not much of a BnZ pilot.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: SVD Dragunov on June 03, 2012, 03:01:03 AM
I'm not sure if its an active topic anymore, but I'd like to add my thought to this...

As I dont play with USN much, I did not notice this before, but today I tried F6F-5 hellcat because I found a nice catface skin for it... BUT... Its really weak and slow as you all wrote here!

My opinion is not too good about US planes, particularly P-51 and Hellcat as their historical reputation and effectiveness is very often overrated as technical perfomance not as a combined factor including pilot training, numerical advantages, reliability and tactical employment.
Most of these are not subjects to a flight simulator, so at first I thought that this difference is because the game "evens out" pilot training, flight tactics and other factors, relying only on technical parameters and pure flight model...
I tried out, but when dogfighting, F6F-3 and 5 are both sitting ducks to even a M3 zero. Horizontal maximum flying speed at 1000meter were
M2 Zero 430kmh,
M3 Zero 450kmh
F6F-3 470Kmh... ?? Without bombs of course. it would be ok, but the acceleration is also awful, I ended up 150-200 after each turn.
F4U1 corsair: 525kmh ... I dont know how much it should be...  In a dive from 3000 to 2000 I could reach 700, and keep is up for some time but the acceleration and climb is awful.
Its ok, I'm not a good pilot. My controls are also poor. Sometimes I feel the AI climbs better even in the same plane. OK, so I changed sides to try out, an M3 Zero against a pair of F5 hellcats... I could literally fly circles around them. I also seen them stalling very often (white stripes at wing edges). So, I think something is bad, or just went wrong...
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Yeager_1946 on June 04, 2012, 02:07:28 AM

I'm easily able to reach 524km/h TAS at sea level in the Hellcat, and around 600km/h TAS at high altitude. All with full fuel. So, I'm not sure if people are looking at IAS thinking it's TAS or if they have their prop pitch or cowl flaps set up wrong, but I find the Hellcats to be quite fast and easy to fly.

One thing that I do find unrealistic is how I'm able to turn into an ace Zero pilot when flying the Hellcat. In real life the Hellcat would never be able to do that. In real life a Hellcat was a sitting duck in a turning dogfight against a Zero flown by a capable pilot. So, when I tangle in a close-in turning dogfight against an Ace Zero pilot I EXPECT a challenge, I EXPECT to get shot down, but in IL-2 I find that the Zeros have a hard time against me. And I don't consider myself to be some IL-2 god or something. Not very challenging or realistic if you ask me.

On 24 June 1944 Saburu Sakai single-handedly fought off 15 F6F Hellcats in his Zero without being hit by a single bullet. He did this even though he was blind in one eye. Many of his 64 victories included Hellcats.

Apart from the Zero's much better handling characteristics, the Zero also had a much better power to weight ratio than the Hellcat and the Zero had a much lower wing loading than the Hellcat. This gave the Zero better climb performance than that of the heavy Hellcat. The Zero also had better acceleration at dogfighting speeds thanks to its better power to weight ratio.

Very little of the Hellcat's somewhat overrated reputation was due to the aircraft itself. Superior tactics, a significant numbers advantage and much better trained and more experienced pilots is what gave the US the advantage in the end. Most of Japan's experienced pilots were killed when their aircraft carriers were sunk in 1942. After that the Japanese pilots were mainly hastily trained rookies with barely basic flight training and absolutely no combat experience, while the US pilots were well trained combat veterans. Not really a level playing field if you ask me.




Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on June 04, 2012, 09:43:57 AM
As I stated earlier in this thread; A long time ago I updated the F6F performance and improved the handling qualities a bit (primarily more stable gun platform) and my FMs were in UP2.01 
For some reason they were missed and not included in UP3 or DBW.  I've been in communication with CirX and the improved FMs will be included in the next buttons update, however there hasn't been a buttons update since February and the improved F6F FMs did not make it in on that one.
In the mean time, try flying the F6F-3 Early. (it's the only one of my F6F FMs that are in DBW so far...) Despite the fact that it doesn't have WEP it is just as fast s the stock F6F and it flies better.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: DaveOD06 on June 04, 2012, 11:48:32 AM
As I stated earlier in this thread; A long time ago I updated the F6F performance and improved the handling qualities a bit (primarily more stable gun platform) and my FMs were in UP2.01 
For some reason they were missed and not included in UP3 or DBW.  I've been in communication with CirX and the improved FMs will be included in the next buttons update, however there hasn't been a buttons update since February and the improved F6F FMs did not make it in on that one.
In the mean time, try flying the F6F-3 Early. (it's the only one of my F6F FMs that are in DBW so far...) Despite the fact that it doesn't have WEP it is just as fast s the stock F6F and it flies better.

That's awesome news.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: SVD Dragunov on June 04, 2012, 04:35:12 PM
Thats very nice, guys... but I'm unfortunate I have stock 4.11m, I can't install Ultra :( so I can't benefit from your nice work:((
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: CWatson on June 11, 2012, 02:39:25 PM

I'm easily able to reach 524km/h TAS at sea level in the Hellcat, and around 600km/h TAS at high altitude. All with full fuel. So, I'm not sure if people are looking at IAS thinking it's TAS or if they have their prop pitch or cowl flaps set up wrong, but I find the Hellcats to be quite fast and easy to fly.

Yeager_1946,

 May I ask what version  of IL-2 1946 you are flying? Any Mods? If so what buttons? I have tried several attempts and put more than a couple hours trying to get some speed out of the F6F with no luck. I have come close to your sea level speed in a F6F-3 (50% fuel) but at altitude it only improved a few knots. The F6F-5 is about 20kmh slower for me.

Stratodog,

  I am using the F6Fs with the SAS modact 2.3 and buttons 9.7 all added to IL-2 1946 4.09.  Does these version of the buttons contain your FMs?  If not could you add a DiFF_FM to the download? If so could it include WEP?

Thanks,
           CW
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on June 12, 2012, 05:32:51 PM

Stratodog,

  I am using the F6Fs with the SAS modact 2.3 and buttons 9.7 all added to IL-2 1946 4.09.  Does these version of the buttons contain your FMs?  If not could you add a DiFF_FM to the download? If so could it include WEP?

Thanks,
           CW


CW, The 9.7 buttons does not have my FM.  I've never looked into the DiFF_FM idea.  I might check into that.  As for WEP, my versions of the F6F-3 Late and F6F-5 do have WEP.  The F6F-3 early does not have WEP because the first 1900 F6F-3s did not have WEP and it was not added as a field mod until the plane had been operational for about 6 months. 

I find that when fighting the Zero and using proper tactics I don't need WEP.  I usually fly around with about 95% power and the cowl flaps cracked open a bit and have no problems at all.  In an interview, Dave McCampbell, (34 kills in F6F) said that he only used WEP twice and that one of those times he was trying to out-run his wingman, thinking he was an enemy fighter.  He was wondering why he couldn't get away and he said, "hey Roy, is that you back there?"  It was.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: CWatson on June 12, 2012, 08:32:31 PM

CW, The 9.7 buttons does not have my FM.  I've never looked into the DiFF_FM idea.  I might check into that.  As for WEP, my versions of the F6F-3 Late and F6F-5 do have WEP.  The F6F-3 early does not have WEP because the first 1900 F6F-3s did not have WEP and it was not added as a field mod until the plane had been operational for about 6 months. 

I find that when fighting the Zero and using proper tactics I don't need WEP.  I usually fly around with about 95% power and the cowl flaps cracked open a bit and have no problems at all.  In an interview, Dave McCampbell, (34 kills in F6F) said that he only used WEP twice and that one of those times he was trying to out-run his wingman, thinking he was an enemy fighter.  He was wondering why he couldn't get away and he said, "hey Roy, is that you back there?"  It was.


 Well if you do the DiFF_FM in 4.09, let me know I will beta test it for you :D. As far as fighting Zekes with a F6F the same question as I asked the other poster above, what version of IL-2, Mod or flight model are you using? I assume it is a version with your FM?

 Of note about the McCambell quote,  a altitude/F6F combination in the game that outruns a Zeke is rare indeed.

 The reason I mentioned the WEP is in the version I am using , specs above,  the WEP equipped later models are slightly slower than the early non WEP F6F-3, all the F6Fs just seem anemic in the power department.


Thanks again,
                   CWatson
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on June 12, 2012, 09:16:11 PM
CW, I'm using DBW 1.71, buttons 9.7
Consequently, I only fly the F6F-3 Early, because I despise and loathe the flight models of the other F6F versions (they are stock)
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: FANATIC MODDER on June 13, 2012, 03:19:42 PM
Hi,

yes indeed, reading about the DBW FMs it was something that I was annoyed with, when I realized that the F6Fs had again the faulty FM.

Can you re-work please the F4U FM too, so both will be included in the next buttons update?
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: CWatson on June 13, 2012, 07:22:25 PM
Hi,

yes indeed, reading about the DBW FMs it was something that I was annoyed with, when I realized that the F6Fs had again the faulty FM.

Can you re-work please the F4U FM too, so both will be included in the next buttons update?

Buttons?

 Heck I am trying to solicit some DiFF_FMs here ;D. I am 409 mod right now and don't think the buttons are updated anymore for this version. If we get updated buttons we might also get P-47s that are 40mph slower or some weird fluke.

 Even though this is a F6F I want to mention I think most if not all US radial single engined fighters seem a little low on the power scale but the F6F seems far more underpowered than the rest. On the other hand unlike others I find the inline engined US fighters just fine.


Thanks again,
                   CW
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on June 13, 2012, 08:02:47 PM
CW,

I just had a thought.  Since you are using 4.09 anyway, you should have a UP2.01 install.  It has all of my F6F versions in it and IMO the best combo of FMs to date in any package instal. 

RE: 4.09 buttons; you might find this helpful http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,23404.0.html
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: CWatson on June 13, 2012, 08:13:18 PM
Stratodog,

 The link leads to the 9.7 buttons I have. I believe you mentioned in a post above they do not contain your FM.

 I was about to post to ask you a question. I have downloaded these F6Fs:  http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,4666.0.html

 What I was going to ask was, since it shows both stock and F6F mod choices in my drop down menu, why would both F6F-5s use the same FM contained in the buttons? Also at the bottom of the OP for the F6F download ther is also a download for a file named 270B4982B9D3C48C, it is unclear to me what that file is for.

 I will look into the UP2.01 you mentioned.

Thanks again,

           CWatson
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on June 13, 2012, 08:26:55 PM
CW,

Those are my Hellcats.  I was unaware that they were available on SAS.  If your list of aircraft includes the versions that say "Mod" then they should use my FM.  Not sure.  Only a speed test would offer an answer. 

For sure the UP2.01 buttons will contain my FM for these same Hellcats.  :)
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: FANATIC MODDER on June 14, 2012, 04:54:59 AM
So we have 3 cases that we have a ready-made FM fix for faulty FMs.

 - Bf 109G-6 Early (apply instead of the stock FM the one of Bf 109G-6 Erla)

 - Merlin spitfires - return back to the 4.09m FM

 - F6Fs of stratodog.

PLEASE CirX...That's more than enough reason for a buttons update.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: CWatson on June 14, 2012, 12:25:41 PM
Stratodog,

 It appears the FMs for the Hellcats downloaded from SAS do have a different FM than the stock game planes, if it is your FM I do not know they are a improvement.


I used the hudconfig mod set to true air speed (TAS) because I get a headache converting kmh and IAS speeds,  WEP was used on all planes so equipped. 50% fuel and default armament. All runs on the Okinawa map.

Even with the improved FMs the planes seem  weak at altitude in particular. The stock FMs are just criminal.

 Could you steer me to a source you would consider as a accurate place for the performance of these aircraft? If the FMs below are yours were you happy with the outcome or did you feel the FMs needed further tweaking?

 To me the planes handle and dive fine but the power, or lack of is not what I imagined for these planes. Are the engine types and power modeled wrong in the game? The reason the radial engine US planes, naval ones in particular seem underpowered.  Are the weights accurate?

 I was always under the impression F6Fs were easily 360-370 mph planes. Also I do not think the FMs need to be improved for the sake of game play but for historical accuracy. If the F6Fs were this weak in real life so be it but nothing I have ever read from those who were around them and flew them gave me that impression.

 
F6F-5mod: 330mph TAS 29k ft        F6F-5:  315mph TAS 29k ft
               320mph TAS 20K ft         stock   330mph TAS 20k ft
               345mph TAS SL                        315mph TAS SL

F6F-3mod: 315mph TAS 29k ft       F6F-3 1943 : 275 mph TAS 29k ft
               310mph TAS 20k ft       stock           260 mph TAS 20k ft
               345mph TAS SL                              270 mph TAS SL

F6F-3 Early: 320 mph TAS 29k ft
mod            300 mph TAS 20k ft
                  275 mph TAS SL

 Thanks again,
                    CWatson
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: tooslow on June 14, 2012, 03:53:15 PM
CWatson … the references below might help you.

I have found the website below a good source of performance tests of WWII aircraft.

 http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org

Specifically you can find some 1944-1945 tests of Hellcats at the U.S. Naval Air Test Center, Patuxent River, Md. USA below (they show top speeds in the 370-390 mph range)

F6F-3

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-3-42633.pdf
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-3-42633-b.pdf
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-3-41588.pdf


F6F-5

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-5-58310.pdf
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-5-72731.pdf


Also some British tests at Boscombe Down in England

F6F-3 (Hellcat I)

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/fn322.pdf
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/fn360.pdf

F6F-5 (Hellcat II)

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/jv224-b.pdf


Hope this helps … Bob
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on June 14, 2012, 04:12:50 PM
Thanks tooslow those are some of the references that I used. 

CW, all I can say is that either your testing method or the FMs are F__cked up because the FMs I developed can go waaay faster than that.  Not sure what's wrong, but the speeds should be very close to what you can find in the posts made by tooslow.

Go to the color chart at the bottom of this page.  http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f.html  My F6Fs should have speeds that reflect that chart.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: tooslow on June 14, 2012, 04:46:02 PM
One more thing …
 
You will find a November 1944 test that put the Zeke 52 against an F6F, F4U, and FM-2 at the the link below:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/ptr-1111.pdf


Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: CWatson on June 14, 2012, 06:09:03 PM
 Stratodog and Tooslow,

 Thanks for the links. They confirmed the performance I had suspected the real F6F had.

 My testing for the FMs is not perfect but  seems consistent.  I have been able to squeeze out speeds above 400mph for P-38s, P-47Ds and P-51Cs and even BF-109s that lack  trim ability  at altitude. Maybe it is me, if others can match that colored chart speeds linked above with the same aircraft at the download link I posted and use the same version of 9.7 buttons for 4.09, I would like to learn what I am doing wrong on this particular model of aircraft. I am baffled.

 Also if your results are similar  to the speeds I attained it would  interesting to know because I can not figure where a third FM would come from.   Would someone "de-tune" a FM before including them in a buttons file?


Thanks again,
                   CW
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on June 14, 2012, 08:36:07 PM
CW, I can confirm that I was able to reach the speeds from the charts in testing.  I used an autopilot (that I can't find anymore damn it) that will hold a specified altitude/heading and you can just add full power and watch it go.  Another important factor is what map is used since they will produce different results.  I used a special test map that has standard temp/pressure.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: CWatson on June 14, 2012, 09:11:48 PM
Stratodog,

 I have no doubt you reached those speeds with your original FMs because you wrote they were comparable to the chart linked. What I was questioning is whether the same FMs you made where in the buttons in question or if the planes were using a third party FM. I do not know how the buttons, FM, plane connect in the game. If your flight model is not in that version of buttons who's are?

That is why I was asking if the planes I got from the download linked above combined with the buttons version also link would result in the designed speed. I was wondering if someone "tweaked" your FMs before allowing them in said buttons. FMs seem to change with buttons change and sometime they appear to get forgotten just as you mentioned your FMs did not make it into DBW.

I would be interested if anyone with the exact downloaded planes and buttons reached the designed speeds.

I have only had time to retest the F6F-5 Mod and the results were the same.


Thanks again,
                  CW
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: FANATIC MODDER on June 15, 2012, 09:21:42 AM
Quote
What I was questioning is whether the same FMs you made where in the buttons in question or if the planes were using a third party FM. I do not know how the buttons, FM, plane connect in the game. If your flight model is not in that version of buttons who's are?

The original ones of 1C/Oleg Maddox maybe?
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: CWatson on June 16, 2012, 09:17:33 AM
The original ones of 1C/Oleg Maddox maybe?

 I don't know, FM is different than the stcok Hellcats in the game. You want to download the aircraft in my earlier post and give one or more a run and compare results?


Thanks  again,
                     CWatson
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: duckie on June 29, 2012, 09:06:26 AM
~S~ to all
loaded HFSX 6.0
was flying F6F-5, taking off from carrier deck of lexington, carrier speed set to 38, having hard time getting off deck with F6F-5,
fuel set to 50%, loadout stock, mixture set to 120%,, can barely clear the water. Even AI F6's hit the drink.
Does it have to do with setting expert mode and all other in game setting set to full real ?
Just wondering
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on June 29, 2012, 09:33:05 AM
I read somewhere that this is a bug that will be worked on.  Haven't tried it my self.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: FANATIC MODDER on June 29, 2012, 08:28:39 PM
The original ones of 1C/Oleg Maddox maybe?

 I don't know, FM is different than the stcok Hellcats in the game. You want to download the aircraft in my earlier post and give one or more a run and compare results?


Thanks  again,
                     CWatson

Testing in UP 2.01 and the UP3.0 (without performance figures, but doing a dogfight) I think you are right about the F6F.
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: CWatson on July 19, 2012, 10:27:43 AM
Stratodog,

 After looking at the files you sent me I see why no one is getting the performance from your Hellcat in the download on this site. In your files it looks like your FM has a modded engine. The SAS 9.7 buttons for 4.09 has your plane using the same engine as the stock Hellcats so the only advantage your plane has over the stock one is less weight.

 I also noted on both yours and the stock FM there is a speed limiter at sea level, VmaxH 611kmh, the A6M5b has VmaxH 555kmh for comparison. Both stock and your FM have a cruise speed of 310kmh, the A6M5B 340kmh for comparison . Seems you fixed the F6Fs and the were castrated in the buttons.

CWatson
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: Stratodog on July 19, 2012, 02:01:25 PM
Great find CW, thanks for your efforts.  Perhaps we can get this thing straightened out.  :)
Title: Re: F6F Hellcat
Post by: AG-51_Razor on July 19, 2012, 03:09:51 PM
~S~ to all
loaded HFSX 6.0
was flying F6F-5, taking off from carrier deck of lexington, carrier speed set to 38, having hard time getting off deck with F6F-5,
fuel set to 50%, loadout stock, mixture set to 120%,, can barely clear the water. Even AI F6's hit the drink.
Does it have to do with setting expert mode and all other in game setting set to full real ?
Just wondering

Duckie, the speed you have set for the Lex, is that 38 kph, or 38 kts? That would be about 18 kts difference in speed. The Navy predicated their flight operations on a wind speed of 31 kts over the deck. So, with no wind, the ship needs to be doing at least 56 kph (31 kts), or put some wind in the mission.