Special Aircraft Service
the SAS Hangar => The Lounge => Requests & Ideas => Topic started by: Kopfdorfer on May 27, 2011, 01:26:16 PM
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This Aircraft is flying in IL2 :
https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,26224.0.html
The pauvre Francais are by far the most underrepresented nationality of the major combatants of WW2 in IL2 with (to my knowledge) no French made aircraft other than the MS406 family represented (though some are being worked on), and despite my personal view that aircraft such as the LeO 451, the Potez 630 series and the ubuquitous Bloch MB152 warrant historical representation, I find this little fighter to be very interesting. I hope you do too.
(http://www.traditions-air.fr/images/avions/beernaert/Caudron690.jpg)
The C.714 Cyclone was the final evolution of the 710 series, which was designed based on a successful pre-war racer, and first flew in April 1938 as the C.714.01 prototype. The primary changes from the C.713 were a new wing airfoil profile, a strengthened fuselage, and instead of two cannons, the fighter had four 7.5 mm MAC 1934 machine guns in the wing gondolas. It was powered by the newer 12R-03 version of the engine, which introduced a new carburettor that could operate in negative g.
(http://3dlm.net/spip/IMG/jpg_c714-2.jpg)
The Armée de l'Air ordered 20 C.714s on 5 November 1938, with options for a further 180. Production started at a Renault factory in the Paris suburbs in summer 1939[2]
Other projected versions were the C.720 trainer with a 75 or 164 kW (100 or 220 hp) engine, the C.760 fighter with a 559 kW (750 hp) Isotta-Fraschini Delta engine, and the C.770 fighter with an 597 kW (800 hp) Renault V-engine. None of these reached production.
(http://i21.servimg.com/u/f21/10/06/04/48/scan1010.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3034/2984089338_a42f02c669.jpg)
Deliveries did not start until January 1940. After a series of tests with the first production examples, it became apparent that the design was seriously flawed. Although light and fast, its wooden construction did not permit a more powerful engine to be fitted. The original engine seriously limited its climb rate and maneuverability with the result that the Caudron was withdrawn from active service in February 1940. In March, the initial production order was reduced to 90, as the performance was not considered good enough to warrant further production contracts. Eighty were diverted to Finland to fight in the Winter War. These were meant to be flown by French pilots. However, events in France resulted in only six aircraft being delivered, and an additional 10 were waiting in the harbour when deliveries were stopped. The six aircraft that arrived were assembled, tested and given registrations CA-551 to CA-556. The aircraft were found to be too unreliable and dangerous to use in Finnish conditions, and were not committed to combat. Further, the Finnish pilots found that it was difficult to start and land the aircraft from the air bases at the front. The Finnish CR.714 aircraft were permanently grounded on 10 September 1940, and taken out of service in 1941.
(http://www.lahdenilmasilta.fi/img/caudron714.jpg)
On 18 May 1940, 35 Caudrons were delivered to the Polish Warsaw Squadron, the Groupe de Chasse polonais I/145, stationed at the Mions airfield. After just 23 sorties, adverse opinion of the fighter was confirmed by front line pilots who expressed concerns that it was seriously underpowered and was no match for contemporary German fighters.
On 25 May, only a week after it was introduced, French Minister of War Guy la Chambre ordered all C.714s to be withdrawn from active service. However, since the French authorities had no other aircraft to offer, the Polish pilots ignored the order and continued to fly the Caudrons. Despite flying a fighter hopelessly outdated compared to the Messerschmitt Bf 109E, the Polish pilots scored 12 confirmed and three unconfirmed victories in three battles between 8 June and 11 June, losing nine in the air and nine more on the ground. Interestingly, among the aircraft shot down were four Dornier Do 17 bombers, but also three Messerschmitt Bf 109 and five Messerschmitt Bf 110 fighters.
The Caudron fighter was also used by the Polish training squadron based in Bron near Lyon. Although the pilots managed to disperse several bombing raids, and although they did not score any kills, they did not lose any machines. By the end of June when France fell, only 53 production machines had been delivered (although the number varies, 98 is another common figure). Despite a larger number being diverted to Finland, only six Caudron C.714s were received in a semi-assembled state. An additional 10 were on the dockside at the time of France's Armistice with Germany, subsequently, further shipments were halted. After assembly, operations in Finland were limited to test flights and, in September 1941, combat flights with the fighters were prohibited. The aircraft were maintained on the roster until they were retired and scrapped on 30 December 1949. One example, CA-556 was transferred to the maintenance personnel school as an instructional airframe.
The office
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk313/petriola/DSCN1132.jpg)
(http://www.parkerinfo.com/plans/cr714t.jpg)
(http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot-restricted/ww2planes/ww2france/caudron_renault_c_714_cyclone_france_1938-36340.jpg)(http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_plans/data/thumbnails/20/caudron_c714.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/714rno8.jpg)
General characteristics
· Crew: One
· Length: 8.63 m (28 ft 3? in)
· Wingspan: 8.97 m (29 ft 5? in)
· Height: 2.87 m (9 ft 5 in)
· Wing area: 12.5 m² (135 ft²)
· Empty weight: 1,395 kg (3,075 lb)
· Loaded weight: 1,880 kg (4,145 lb)
· Powerplant: 1× Renault 12R 03 inverted V-12 inline piston engine, 373 kW (500 hp)
Performance
· Maximum speed: 460 km/h (249 kn, 286 mph) at 5,000 m (16,400 ft)
· Range: 900 km (486 nmi, 559 mi)
· Climb to 4,000 m: 9.66 min
Armament
· 4 × 7.5 mm MAC 1934 machine guns
Some paint jobs...
(http://www.traditions-air.fr/images/avions/docavia/caudron714.jpg)
(http://maquettesavions.free.fr/images/Caudron714.gif)
(http://dup.sly.free.fr/avions/images/cr714.jpg)
(http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Images/2-Airplanes/Allies/4-France/1-Fighters/CR.714-Cyclone/Left.jpg)
(http://lonestar.texas.net/~snolep/fighter/graphics/cr-6.gif)
(http://www.defesa.net.br/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/CAUDRON-C.714.jpg)
(http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Images/2-Airplanes/Allies/4-France/1-Fighters/CR.714-Cyclone/TopBelly.jpg)
(http://a10.idata.over-blog.com/424x600/2/48/70/51/4-x-714.jpg)
(http://blueprintbox.com/watermark-gif.php?img=./data/media/438/caudron-renault-c714-cyclone-1938-france.gif)
J'aime vraiment le Caudron Cyclone
(http://i76.servimg.com/u/f76/10/06/04/48/img04610.jpg)
Kopfdorfer
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Hey there Kopf!
Good one, quality request and inspiration for the Weekend.
If you want to have a dig, go and take a look how the Polish Pilots fared with that Plane.
french French french... there were a bunch of Poles in there too, and you might find an interesting story or two, of a Pole and his Cauldron...
:)
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This is an interesting plane in all respects... A racer turned into a fighter; I remember someone had advanced with 3d modelling of the aircraft back in the old AAA days, but sadly, this must be another grand project long dead (if I recall correctly, the same modder was engaged in the japanese long distance bomber project, but that is now history, isn't it?)
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Exactly! Remember having seen in AAA this project, also Bloch MB 152, and here Breguet 693 and Dewoitine D 520, this last one being the most advanced.
AAA projects seemed to have faded away, and here there is also no news about the others two projects...
Hope the announcement of the battle of France map following Westfront 44, will enhance the modders interest on French, Dutch, AC. This domain is still unnexplicably forgotten by the official game patches, and by the modders community (except Fokker G1), may be a lack of interest in this period?
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nice request! 8)
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I think nice request :) . I love Sitzkrieg und Fall Gelb.... I hope, one day, I will see in game this aero together with another french planes together with belgian Hurricanes and Foxes ...
(http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/Avions3/cr714_1f.jpg)
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Perhaps it was not a good fighter, but is a very nice machine.
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Very beautiful and original fighter.
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I built this for il2 but its still not fine tuned! (FM!) I couldnt find someone until now to help me with the fm. Difficult is that I dont have any performance charts of this plane... so its all guessing what i did.
(https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif)
or the one with better engine, non wood construction and 6 machine guns:
(https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif)
If you want I can release them here as alpha version?!
cheers
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damn funking right you can!
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Wow!
Thanks for your work on this forgotten plane. I'm sure someone will eventually help you here.
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give me a few days and i will check if the classes still working with latest sas version of the game. hopefully not much changed ;)
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Glad to see this nice plane again PhiHL.
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Shame that this aircraft can not yet see the day due to lack of informations, views of the progress of the project ;)
for the motor:
http://caudronc714.free.fr/moteur.htm (http://caudronc714.free.fr/moteur.htm)
performances:
http://caudronc714.free.fr/caracteristiques.htm (http://caudronc714.free.fr/caracteristiques.htm)
from Fred Hangar: http://213.198.1.32/fredshangar/caudron_714C1_fr.htm (http://213.198.1.32/fredshangar/caudron_714C1_fr.htm)
Vitesse maximale: 298 mph\259 noeuds 480 km/h à 4500m
Vitesse de croisière: 223 mph\194 noeuds\360 km/h
Motorisation: Renault 12 R-03 à compresseur, 12 cylindres inversés en V de 450Ch (500ch au décollage)
Hélice:Ratier tripale métallique type HG de 2,16m soit 7,09 ft.
Autonomie maximale: 298 Nm/552km à 460Km/h / 445 Nm / 825km à 360Km/h
Capacité en carburant: 54.16 gal/205 l
Poids à vide: 2 740.35 livres/1 243 kg
Poids total maximal: 3 628.81 livres/1646 kg
Longueur: 28 pieds, 32 pouces / 8,632 m
Envergure: 29 pieds 43 pouces/8,97 m
Hauteur: 9 pieds, 19 pouces / 2,802 m
Surface Alaire: 134 pieds 55 pouces / 12.5 m²
Nombre de places: 1
It's not much, but we try ;)
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how were the stall characteristics? sudden stalls at high speeds/g load, similar to P-51?
manoevrability mediocre?
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What nice surprise for Friday PhiHL! You never know what you'll find when you hit replies to your messages around here!
I expect people around the globe are blowing dust off old books or searching their drives for that gem of a flight curve they downloaded four years ago just in case!
If you have no luck , try posting over at C6 or have one of the SAS Niemen do it for you.
It will be great to see this plane hit the French Singles board very soon.
Thanks so much for your work.
Kopfdorfer
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from the links of leperemagloire :
- high torque form the engine, so dangerous take off
- weight on the front of the aircraft, tendency to dive hardly corrected by trimming
- doesn't glide well
- good maneuverability in the horizontal plane, probably limited in the vertical plane because underpowered
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WOW!!!!!! ALPHA, BETA, DELTA...NO MATTER I WANT IT PLEASE!
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Thanks JFC=PhilHL. We certainly want it. Much the same way a junkie wants a fix.
cheers
David Prosser
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i will happily throw the Sabres out, and the helicopters too, for Planes of this kind.
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i will happily throw the Sabres out, and the helicopters too, for Planes of this kind.
Totally agree. ;D Nice one =JFC=PhilHL 8)
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If you want I can release them here as alpha version?!
Oh mama!!! Yeeesss!!! (ps: what is left to do at this stage?)
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This looks like another cool aircraft for the IL-2. I like those classic prop-driven machines.
I don´t think I have much on WW2 aircraft from France in my book collection, but I will check. If I find something
worth using for this airplane I will post the book for you guys to use.
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William Green's "Warplanes of the Second World War: Fighters Vol. 1" gives the following specs for the C.714:
Engine- 450 hp Renault 12Rol
Max speed- 302.5 mph @ 13,120 ft.
Climb to 13,120 ft- 6.5 mins.
Service ceiling 29,55 ft.
Range- 599 miles @ 199 mph.
Weights- empty 3,086 lb.
loaded 3,858 lb.
Dimensions- span 29 ft 5 in.
length 27 ft 11.75 in.
height 9 ft 5 in.
wing area 134.549 sq ft.
Armament- four 7.5mm MAC 1934 M39 machine guns, no mention of rpg.
For C.760:
Engine- 730 hp Isotta-Fraschini Delta R.C.40 12 cylinder.
Max speed- 285 mph @ sea level.
354 mph @16,400 ft.
Initial climb rate- 2,600 ft/min.
Climb to 13,120 ft- 5 mins.
Service ceiling-33,800 ft.
Endurance- 3 hrs 10 mins @ 298 mph @13,120 ft.
1 hr 30 mins @ 95% power.
Weights- empty 3,179 lb.
normal loaded 4.092 lb.
Dimensions- span 29 ft 5.125 in.
length 29 ft 2 in.
height 9 ft 6.125 in.
wing area 134.549 sq ft.
Armement- six 7.5mm MAC 1934 M39 machine guns with 300 rpg,later to be increased to 1000, 1200 and finally 1500 rpg.
Fuel capacity: one 86 Imp. Gal. fuel tank between engine and cockpit.
It isn't much info, but better than nothing I suppose.
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If you want I can release them here as alpha version?!
Oh mama!!! Yeeesss!!! (ps: what is left to do at this stage?)
mmh..
1. currently the markings are only on texture, maybe i leave it as it is now.
2. flight model is pre-alpha ;)
3. cockpit is missing :( i have no time for it now
rest is done. its all built from scratch, no franken. proper 5 lods, d0 has around 7600 polygons, damage texture, caps, animation.
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If you want I can release them here as alpha version?!
Oh mama!!! Yeeesss!!! (ps: what is left to do at this stage?)
mmh..
1. currently the markings are only on texture, maybe i leave it as it is now.
2. flight model is pre-alpha ;)
3. cockpit is missing :( i have no time for it now
rest is done. its all built from scratch, no franken. proper 5 lods, d0 has around 7600 polygons, damage texture, caps, animation.
cant wait!
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Hello =JFC=PhilHL you are plans for release this fantastic Caudron760??
regards
(https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif)
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Sorry
I have read the whole topic of the C-714 but can not find any clue about the C-760.
Probably I'm an ass with the English :-[ ;D
Anyway thanks Crazy
I will continue attentive to news