Special Aircraft Service
the SAS Hangar => The Lounge => Topic started by: Scharnhorst1943 on April 06, 2011, 10:41:35 PM
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So ...
I saw that the TBD Devastator is going to be added as AI only in the next update. I don't know about anyone else, but I am FREAKING EXSTATIC !!!!!! WOOT!
This one has been a long time coming, and I think will add soooo much to the game. I have always had a personal preference to the Pacific Theater. We now can have historical early war campaigns and scenarios. We can now have a more historical Battle of the Coral Sea, Battle of Midway, Early Carrier Raids and so forth ... All I can say is that I am pumped, and can't wait till a place holder cockpit is put into this bird.
On a side note, TBD's have gone down in history as generally being a failure. However, I would like to point out that the Devastator was no less "obsolete" than the Japanese B5N Kate. Despite some slight advantages in speed and maneuverability (which is no big surprise as ALL Japanese aircraft early & mid-war enjoyed either speed advantages, maneuverability advantages or both over their American counterparts) both the Devastator and the Kate entered service roughly at similar times, and the advantages were not so extreme as to negate the Devastator.
On the contrary, I submit to everyone here that the problem was the tactics used by the USN. Up to the Battle of Midway, the USN had not yet learned to coordinate attacks very well. The horrible slaughter of USS Hornet's Torpedo Squadron 8 was not due to antiquated equipment (ie the Devastators) but the fact that a single torpedo squadron of Devastators took on practically the entire Japanese Navy single handed without any fighter escorts whatsoever. By switching roles ... what do you think the outcome would have been if a single squadron of Kates attacked a fleet of four USN carriers with full compliments of F4F's each? Answer ... the same as what happened to Torpedo 8.
To support my claim, lets examine the combat history of the Devastator. They managed to sink several IJN ships including an escort carrier Shoho as well as successfully damaging or destroying many key Japanese airfields and bases during the Early Carrier Raids. Also, the sacrifice of Torpedo 8 is the reason the American SBD Dauntlesses had their way with the IJN fleet carriers.
Anyway, agree with me ... disagree with me. Either way I am excited to get this plane in game. I have always been a radical fan of naval aviation.
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yep, it's great stuff, but please exercise restraint in this thread, folks...no bashing is needed, as the last thread on this topic went south quickly and had to be locked.
so please, if you like it and want to comment, cool......if all you want to do is bash the patch, etc...please do so on another forum, not here. thanks! 8)
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I agree, it'll be real nice to see the Devastator in the game. I can dig where you're coming from with your thoughts on how having it will add much to the game as I feel the same way about the Hs123 as I've long had a thing for the Schlacht arm. :)
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Faillure or not, I think we deserve the right to fly all planes, regardless if it failed or whatever major or small role it fulfilled during those days. :)
In the same regard, some of the planes we have in our current sets were pretty bad aswell. :P
The Devastator will be a very nice addition, one that i've been missing for years in the pacific scenario.
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Should be a wellcome adition. The Devastator was a big player in the carrier wars.
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Yea, at the time of introduction, it was, "state of the art". Perhaps the best in the world, at the time. I believe, it was the USN's first all metal aircraft with folding wings, retractable landing gear and enclosed canopy. But by 1941, it was obsolete. I guess that's why the USN had already ordered the TBF. BTW, Poor torpedos didn't help.
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Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgKC9VU1-n8
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Who needs Clouds over Europe...at least until it is massively fixed?
(BTW Those color shots above were done for the 1940 film Dive Bomber ,directed by the great Micheal Curtiz
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I think torpedo bombers are just destined to suck. Recently I read a book about the destruction of convoy PQ-17 and could see how difficult for the German torpedo bomber to hit a big convoy with only a handful of escort. Attacking a huge carrier task force at low altitude, when flying straight and slow is just beyond me. Cannot imagine what fear and stress torpedo bomber pilots must endure.
BTW, the newcoming IL-4 is another good torpedo bomber as well.
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duff,
that was extraordinary film footage. Love to see those old F3Fs, SBC Helldivers and the Vought Vindicators as well as the TBDs. Really cool.
kopfdorfer
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Amazing footage there, duff. Nice find.
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I'm thrilled to see the Devastator, too. It's been a LONG time coming. Of course, I'm equally thrilled to see the IK-3, but I love the obscure stuff.
I agree with Scharnhorst1943's options about the Devastator's war record. The TBD was hot stuff when she was new, but airplane development back in the 1930s and 40s followed its own variant of "Moore's Law" - the "rule" that governs computer development these days. 2-3 year old equipment was mostly to completely obsolete.
As for the debacle of Torpedo Squadron 8 at Midway, crummy early war U.S. torpedoes, elite Japanese navy Zero pilots and bad tactic position helped seal their fate.
Finally, it's worth noting that part of Torpedo 8 was equipped with TBF Avengers. They missed rendezvousing with the USS Hornet at Midway by one day, so they flew on to Midway. Flying from Midway, 5 or the 6 Avengers were shot down under similar circumstances as the main portion of the squadron. When given proper support, the Devastator could do its job just fine. In any case, it didn't "fail" in combat - it was due to be replaced anyway. What failed was USN tactical doctrine and coordination - like Scharnhorst and RGA said.
FWIW, here's what Ensign George Gay had to say about their doomed attack:
http://www.navy.mil/midway/midway_3_TORPEDO%20SQ%208.html
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Yea, at the time of introduction, it was, "state of the art". Perhaps the best in the world, at the time. I believe, it was the USN's first all metal aircraft with folding wings, retractable landing gear and enclosed canopy. But by 1941, it was obsolete. I guess that's why the USN had already ordered the TBF. BTW, Poor torpedos didn't help.
From Wikipedia:
"The XTBD Devastator, which flew for the first time on 15 April 1935, marked a large number of "firsts" for the U.S. Navy.[3] It was the first widely-used carrier-based monoplane as well as the first all-metal naval aircraft, the first with a totally-enclosed cockpit, the first with power-actuated (hydraulically) folding wings; it is fair to say that the TBD was revolutionary.[4] A semi-retractable undercarriage was fitted, with the wheels designed to protrude 10 in (250 mm) below the wings to permit a "wheels-up" landing with only minimal damage. A crew of three was normally carried beneath a large "greenhouse" canopy almost half the length of the aircraft. The pilot sat up front; a rear gunner/radio operator took the rearmost seat, while the bombardier occupied the middle seat. During a bombing run, the bombardier lay prone, sliding into position under the pilot to sight through a window in the bottom of the fuselage, using the Norden Bombsight.[5]"
@ Pursuivant:
Excellent read. I really enjoyed it. I never knew that the first time they ever took off with a torpedo load out was on June 4th to attack the IJN fleet ... WOW! Those poor bastards did not stand much of a chance ... just incredible. How would you like to have the Battle of Midway be your very first combat mission? Just a little bit daunting if I do say so myself ...
Also more on the Avengers ... they also had very bad losses until American tactics changed. TBF Avenger effectiveness was not very proficient until 1943.
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Well put Scharnhorst.
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yea, those torpedo crews had a tough job and they didn't scare easy.