Special Aircraft Service
the SAS Hangar => The Lounge => Requests & Ideas => Topic started by: Chaoic16 on January 23, 2011, 11:57:45 AM
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Hello everyone, I have always find this aircraft to be very interesting and I have spend alot of time researching about this interesting aircraft. This aircraft is one of these aircraft that I would love to see in IL-2 1946 one day. I have great information on this aircraft, I hope this community will enjoy this and discuss about this aircraft.
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Blohm & Voss BV P.215
Information:
Jet Planes of the third Reich, The Secret Projects Volume One by Manfred Griehl
The BV P 215.02 was a h ighly unorthodox design. It had sharply sweptbackwings, the tips having anhedral and carrying control surfaces which acted as elevators and also partly as ailerons and rudders. Inboard of each of the anhedral tips was small vertical rudder. Slotted flaps occupied the entire length of the trailing edge of the main wing. The large fuel tanks were installed in the wings, which were of constant chord. The BV 215 was powered by two HeS 011 A-1s mounted in the extreme tail of the fuselage. A large single intake in the nose fed air via a bullet-shaped fuselage carried the armament and radar equipment. The crew of three, seated in a pressurized cabin, consisted of pilot, radio operator, and rear gunner. The defensive armament normaly comprised one FLH 151 remotely controlled barbette, located on top of the rear fuselage. Installation of two oblique upward-firing MK 108 guns with 100 rpg was also possible. The main forward armament was the heaviest ever proposed for a German night fighter, the standard offensive armament comprised up to five MK 108s with 200 rpg. Later, four X-4 or R 100BS missiles on underwing racks in conjunction with advanced Oberon weapons release system were also proposed.
All three wheels of the tricycle undercarriage retracted into the fuselage, the nosewheel of 30.3 x 1.1 in (700 x 270 mm) was taken from He 219 night fighter. The mainwheel size was 48 x 1.75 in (1220 x 445 mm). The BV was also to be employed as an effective fighter bomber in emergencies, able to carry up to two SC 500 bombs semi-recessed in the fuselage in order to reduce air drag. The description of thei design was finished in March 1945, and submitted to the Chef TRL by mid-month. Further development was stopped, because construction was considered too expensive under the prevailing conditions.
Other proposals sent to the Chef TLR in March 1945, included an advanced version of the P 215 possessing an endurance of three hours at full throttle and a service ceiling of nearly 42,650 ft (13,000 m). however, the design finally submitted to the authorities had the much inferior endurance fo 1 hr 39 min at the combat altitude of 36,090 ft (11,000 m) at full throttle. At a flying weight of 22,046 lbs (10,000 kg) and one-hundred percent thrust, a speed of about 535 mph (860 km/h) was predicted. Despite this perfomance, there was no chance for the construction of prototype due to preoccupation of the Blohm & Voss development department with their BV 155 high-altitude piston-engine fighter, the first prototype of which flew in early 1945.
http://www.luft46.com/bv/bvp215.html
A specification was issued by the Technische Luftrüstung (Technical Air Armaments Board) in late January 1944 for the definitive night fighter. Preliminary requirements were to be a top speed of 900 km/h (559 mph), an endurance of four hours, armament consisting of four cannon and internally mounted radar (FuG 240 or 244). Dr. Richard Vogt, who designed the BV P.212, immediately began work on an aircraft to meet the specifications issued for the new night fighter. Vogt used the BV P.212 as the overall basis for the new BV P.215 night fighter. The fuselage was short, with an air intake in the nose leading directly to the two Heinkel He S 011 mounted in the rear fuselage. As with other Blohm & Voss Vogt designs, the fuselage structure was built up out of the intake tube, and all components attached to this structure (see the BV P.211.02). The wings featured a 30 degree sweepback and 6 degrees of dihedral; internally the support came from a wide wing box, constructed from
welded steel. The outer wing tips angled down at 23 degrees, and assisted stability and control. Warm air diverted from the engine compartment was circulated through the wings for de-icing purposes.
There were two small vertical fins and rudders located on the trailing edge of the wing, where the outer wing tips angled downwards. Total fuel capacity was 7800 liters (2061 gallons), stored mainly in wing tanks. An ingenious system to pre-heat the fuel was designed; a pump would circulate the fuel of the fuselage feeder tank through a spiral line around the engine compartment and into the wing tanks. The nose landing gear was taken from the Heinkel He 219 and retracted to the rear, and the two main wheels (angled forward by 16 degrees) also retracted forwards into the fuselage. The
pressurized cockpit held a three man crew; a pilot, radar operator and navigator/radio man, and all three were provided with ejection seats. A wide variety of offensive armament could be carried in the aircraft's nose, and defensive armament consisted of a FHL 151 remote controlled, rear-facing turret armed with either one or two MG 151/20 20 mm cannon. A provision was made for possibly mounting two MK 108 30 mm cannon firing upwards, located behind the cockpit. Two SC 250 250 kg (551 lbs) or SC 500 (1102 lbs) could be carried in a belly recess. The BV P.215's constuction was mainly of metal througout, except for wooden control surfaces and the aircraft's nose. The nose was made of wood because of the installed electrical equipment. The installed electrical radio/radar equipment
is listed below.
In the original Blohm & Voss proposal, it was pointed out that the P.215 was easily transportable. After removing the wings, the fuselage would be easily transportable with no need for specialized lifting equipment. On February 27, 1945, the specifications were upgraded for the future nightfighters, which none of the competitors' aircraft were able to achieve.Although the P.215 would have had good performance figures, it too did not reach the new specifications either. Nevertheless, it was chosen for further development on March 20, 1945. The end of the war ended any further development of this novel aircraft.
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Data:
http://www.luft46.com/bv/bvp215.html
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Armaments:
4 Mk 108 and 56 R4M
https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif
(https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif)
4 MG 213/30 and 56 R4M
https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif
(https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif)
2 MK 112
https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif
(https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif)
6 MG 213/30
https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif
(https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif)
5 MK 108
https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif
(https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif)
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Three view plans:
https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif
(https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif)
https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif
(https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif)
https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif
(https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif)
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Pictures:
http://www.luft46.com/aoart/ao215-1.jpg
(http://www.luft46.com/aoart/ao215-1.jpg)
http://www.luft46.com/aoart/ao215-2.jpg
(http://www.luft46.com/aoart/ao215-2.jpg)
http://www.luft46.com/aoart/ao215-3.jpg
(http://www.luft46.com/aoart/ao215-3.jpg)
http://www.luft46.com/aoart/ao215-4.jpg
(http://www.luft46.com/aoart/ao215-4.jpg)
https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif
(https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/dead/dead.gif)
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Videos:
Very large RC version of BV P.215 flying
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7ojJt5eyqc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0YXeITOjyE&feature=&p=EA1FA66476CDDF51&index=0&playnext=1
Chaoic out...
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Mmmm, I'd love to 'see' one of this family of BV 2.00 series designs ingame.... Apparently they were fairly well in to the windtunnel testing stages by te time the area/factory(/ies) was captured.
Found a newer vid of an BV.215 in Dutch I believe, possible easier to hear/translate than the earlier one...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DByE69LyePQ
and another with bad landing wing tip damage reference, and no audio.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0YXeITOjyE
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Also shares elements with this Heinkel Fighter Design:
http://www.luft46.com/heinkel/hep1078c.html
(http://www.luft46.com/heinkel/hep1078c.gif)
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As with Soviet 'Tsagi' shared basic design features/concepts like those within/between the MiG-21, Su-17 & MiG-29 Su-27 for example, so was the German aero industry & RLM starting to formulate similar, before they were defeated.
Also similar features in another viewpoint, the Arado E.555 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbMNXAH8KVg
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if germany made all of these aircraft they would have raped all of the allies and would have won the war.
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I don't think so, but it would have happened differently; longer, more deaths, possible ceasfire on Western Front - increased losses to the 'Mighty Eight' makes greater possiblity of the suspension of daylight raids; assuming the Polesti Raids were intercepted.
But thats hyperthetical, and going off-topic. Edited, at oh so early O' clock (0713-ish GMT)
Sorry for my crap German; I only ever learned it on holiday, I hope this won't offend enough/to much.
:P thumbs up to Radoye & Solo :)
Lets leave the little napoleon complexed farting vegetarian out of this, there is little time for him, neither has the thread if his moustach twitches, this is about the aircraft, not how it would be his ego-stoking version of 'My moustach over all others'
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If Germany made all these planes they'd lose the war even sooner!
Instead of wasting resources on impractical "White Elephant" projects (the V-1 and V-2 rockets that could hardly hit a target the size of Greater London, the V-3 uber-cannon, the Me-163 that shot down less Allied bombers than own planes lost to landing accidents, the Maus superheavy tank that was unable to cross bridges...) the Germans should've concentrated their limited resources into producing more conventional types in greater numbers and deploying them where it counts.
The Sherman and T-34 tanks aren't half as spectacular as the Tiger but the Allies were capable of having them everywhere and in greater numbers than German tanks they would occasionally encounter. The P-51 was nice but nowhere as advanced as Me 262, however the sky was full of P-51's and there rarely was a 262 to be seen.
That's why the Allies won.
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looks effective, yet another reason to celebrate the destruction of Third Reich :D
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@Radoye: Well, the difference is, P-51 were built in great numbers in factories out of reach for any enemy bomber. The German had to produce their weapons in factories which got some bombs on their roof every day. They would have had to use fighters like the Me-262 because the other things would have been not good enough. And they hat enough fuel for Jets.
But I would like to see some of the crazy machines in the game ^^
I have to look for more info about a Bf-109 with Jumo engine (about 50 to 70kmh faster than a G-6)
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I like the way the Blohm & Voss BV P.215 looks in flight like a bat it would have been one bad ass night fighter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7ojJt5eyqc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0YXeITOjyE&feature=player_detailpage
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@Radoye: Well, the difference is, P-51 were built in great numbers in factories out of reach for any enemy bomber. The German had to produce their weapons in factories which got some bombs on their roof every day.
True. Germany had no hope to out-produce the Allies who had the advantage of US industrial base being well out of harms way.
They would have had to use fighters like the Me-262 because the other things would have been not good enough. And they hat enough fuel for Jets.
There's no question Me 262 was better than the piston engine designs available for Germany.
There's no question Tiger II tanks were better than Pz IV's.
But, with the limited resources they had, maybe it would be better to have 3 Fw 190D-9's and 3 Pz IV's on the battlefield than one Me 262 and one Tiger II.
It took an average of 5 Shermans to destroy one German "Big Cat" tank - but, the Allies had the luxury to sacrifice 5 tanks and have plenty left EVERYWHERE to give support to their infantry, while German infantry had to fight unsupported because their tanks were nowhere to be seen.
And that's what made the difference.
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back on topic
This was always a favourite of mine at the old luft46 site, I would be very keen to see this one fly
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Ok I will just clear this discussion up, the Me-262 could outrun any Fighter plane the allies had, thus it could get to the bombers and decimate their formations with a 4:1 kill ratio, because Germany was running out of precious resources and metals of which they had taken from captured territories, eg Nickel, Chromium, the Turbine blades in a Jumo 004 would often burn out after not more than 24 Hours of operation, and lastly High quality jet fuel was at an extreme low, this is seconded by the often common sight of seeing 262, Arado and Heinkel Airframes just sitting out on the Aifield, either without new engines or without fuel.
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I always had a soft spot for the smaller 211 or 213, but theres the Lerche & 262HG-II examples of a 46' fighter, why not the 215 for a 46' bomber.
DVL, RLM & jet engine design teams & productions was starting to get some Jumo 109-03D's or BMW 109-04C's (AFAIR) production devlopement engines past 100hrs at close to average powers, all with decreasing strategic resources. But either the Western or Eastern forces advancing stopped that.
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The HG II was a High speed research aircraft to test the Airframe limits of the 262 Design, the Lerche was just a stupid idea with extremely poor performance. ::)
Sometimes I wonder how they called this expansion 1946, as it doesn't really contain any Post 45 German, Japanese or Allied Designs.
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the Lerche was just a stupid idea with extremely poor performance. ::)
how would you know if it never existed? :-\
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the Lerche was just a stupid idea with extremely poor performance. ::)
how would you know if it never existed? :-\
Fly it in IL-2 and you will know what I mean.
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Well, the "high quality jet fuel" was not the problem, because compared to the fuel for a K4 or D9 the jet fuel was (and still is today) cheap crap.
And I think even if they would have made 5 Panzer IV and 5 D9´s out of 1 Tiger II and 1 Me-262 they wouldn´t have had any advantage, because if I can kill one Tiger II with a bomb, I can kill 5 Panzer IV´s too...and those 5 D9´s would have been as good as one 262, staying on the ground without fuel, pilots or ammunition.
And personally I think the Lerche does rather a good job...for what it´s designed for.
Standing around near a factory, take off when those bombers come in, shoot 1 or maybe 2 (they could have used R4M rockets or some gunpods) and then fly home. I would say the Lerche does perfom good in this job.
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I've heard that the problem with designs like the BV215 was one of rigidity- If those wings can flex any, it throws the whole thing off. Blohm und Voss were going to use a very heavy cylindrical wing spar (doubling as a fuel tank) to solve the problem, but it remained to be seen if it would have worked in practice.
Anyway, I still miss the lack of the more obvious "what if" possibilites in this game. The Germans get that silly Heinkel "Lerche"-thing, but the allies don't have their Vought F5U. There are various German jets in the game, a couple of which never even flew, in real life, But we don't get the Gloster Meteor, the De Havilland Vampire, and the McDonnell Phantom (all of which flew during the war) to give them plausible opponents.
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the Lerche was just a stupid idea with extremely poor performance. ::)
how would you know if it never existed? :-\
Fly it in IL-2 and you will know what I mean.
that's not the same ::)
and besides, it has very great performance., no vertical stall, fast, and great guns and rockets
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I like try to fly the Learche with on engine off the same engines prop feathered, so funny, can almost land it too on one, if you don't mind getting a bit dizzy or nearly cooking the remaining motor.
Sos' for the off topic-ness.
Battle damage on the 215.03 with holes on wings near the tips, or damaged on the tips should cause those to suffer some tip control(s) flutter/buffet, as this is sort of what the DVL/RLM were worried most about with this family of design.
While radio controlled models do not recreate the specific structural wieghtings and equipment loadings etc, they do provide a good basic ball-park representation of some characteristics, many plane designers used to make designs into hand throwable balsa and tissue models, to test throw/glide before windtunnels were built, or devoloped/proved enough to get access to windtunnels.
People still do this when designing there own RC plane design, by making a simpler 'free flight' model to evolve upon.
The fact that some of the drawings for this family of A/C did include systems & equipment or space for 'being developed' equipment, means that paperwise, things are quite far along, say around 20% of the way to the 1st prototype being started.
Having said that, this would more likely be like the DH spider Crab or Meteor, entering during the end of the war. They came close to pulling off something devastingly unforseen, and caught the allies 'with their trousers down' a few times - just as we did to each other, them and others elsewhere.