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### AuthorTopic: Fuel density in drop tanks  (Read 379 times)

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#### Dreamk

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##### Re: Fuel density in drop tanks
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2020, 03:17:19 AM »

Quote
I've seen what appear to be odd values for Kalibr assigned to the projectiles of some guns in the Weapons classes
I have news for you
These odd values come from a series of successive mistakes in the ballistic formulas used by the various programmers employed by Maddox/ 1C for the different successive version of this game - it appears that there was a succession of programmers, each trying to correct the mistakes of the former by using various factors (empirical, without rationale basis), but none of them understanding the ballistic formulas.

If only they had used systematically the same correcting factors - but for each batch of new guns introduced they used a different way of reaching what they though was the correct destructive effect to be obtained (the Soviet guns must of course be the best and after that the German - as part of Maddox team ideology)

For instance they took a formula from... Wikipedia, without understanding that it was a simplified formula and, worse, was a formula using parameters that were not International units (the Ballistic coefficient in this formula is in Lb/sq in, but the programmers used international units (sq m and kg) for the other parameters....forgetting to introduce a conversion factor  ........with the results one can expect.

Vasya at aviaskins has been doing quite a lot of work for getting more consistency and realism between the destructive effects of all the guns in the game, although he too uses an empirical method - looking at and comparing the effect of various guns at shooting at the same target in the game .
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#### whistler

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##### Re: Fuel density in drop tanks
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2020, 03:41:07 AM »

Whistler's NG-HUD

The HUD displays:

Code: [Select]
((FlightModelMain) (World.getPlayerFM())).M.mass
Whether this value takes into account everything or not, I cannot tell. The output may be different depending on modded aircraft / game version / EngineMod...
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NG-HUD v3.5H | NG-MAP v3.1 | NG-CAM v1.6: https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/board,93.0.html

#### greybeard

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• diligo veritatem
##### Re: Fuel density in drop tanks
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2020, 05:16:36 AM »

Whether this value takes into account everything or not, I cannot tell. The output may be different depending on modded aircraft / game version / EngineMod...

I checked it virtually in stock 4.14.1. I simply watched total weight before and after having dropped external tank (Ctrl+D) on a P-39D, while stationary on the runway. The fact that the difference is just 156 kg (please see my table above) instead of the newly set 227 kg, can't be by chance...
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#### WxTech

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##### Re: Fuel density in drop tanks
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2020, 01:24:52 PM »

I discovered--only after many hours of hair pulling--that some classes cannot be modified, in certain respects at least. In my discovery case, I wanted to separate the triggers for the .30 and .50 guns on the early P-40s. It turned out that I needed to create a new class for each plane! The game would seem to employ some checking routine to keep modders from instituting 'cheats', is my guess. Perhaps the same goes for the drop tank weights?.....
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#### WxTech

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##### Re: Fuel density in drop tanks
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2020, 01:30:13 PM »

DreamK,
Thanks for the insights on the weapons clusterfrack. Well, at least we can for the time being console ourselves with the thought that the ballistics errors will mostly affect the hitting power at longer ranges, due to the effect of drag accumulating with time of flight.
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#### Dreamk

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##### Re: Fuel density in drop tanks
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2020, 01:59:53 PM »

The main problem with guns is the lack of consistency - some guns have totally different hitting power, although they have similar bullet mass, caliber and initial speed.
The bullet drag is better managed in Il2 formulas, but most "armor" penetration calculations in the damage model are a dirty joke, as most of them use, among their successive  formulas, a formula where someone introduced a parameter without paying attention to the fact that its practical value was always 0......
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#### WxTech

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##### Re: Fuel density in drop tanks
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2020, 05:42:38 PM »

DreamK,
Just to be clear about bullet hitting power, I trust you aren't recerring to the "Power" parameter in the gun classes, right? As we all should know, this is a number that determines the hit effect to use. In other words, it's purely an aesthetic issue related to appearances.

I thought to remind of this because, indeed, the "Power" values can vary a fair bit, even in the same class when more than one bullet is defined. In my first explorations with classes I initially supposed Power was related to hitting or destructive power, but was quickly disabused of this notion, divining its real purpose after just a couple of experiments.

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#### Dreamk

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##### Re: Fuel density in drop tanks
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2020, 03:09:06 PM »

No I am not referring to the "power" parameter - I was referring to the destructive result of the bullets' hits.
This "power" parameter was apparently initially introduced by the original programmers to reflect the explosive / incendiary charge of some bullets but very soon it became what you say.
It's the reason why Vasya uses an empirical method to checks his modifications of gun classes: looking at and comparing the effect of various guns at shooting at the same target in the game .
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