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[agracier]

Every now and then, for reasons I have not been able to figure out, the plane i am flying as pilot will start a mission with the engine turned off. Usually, not always but usually, I can then turn the engine on and after the normal starting up sequence, it will turn on and fly normally.

I find it very odd that this happens. And it is not consistently with the same plane, but apparently random or maybe depending on which other planes are set as AI in a mission.

This is not a major issue, but just odd and unexpected. I wonder if anyone has any remarks or insights?

[whistler]

I confirm in air-start missions. Randomly or at least, not easily reproducible. I normally quickly turn autopilot on to prevent collisions with my team.

[Mick]

... well, you're being very vague here, what kind of missions ...? 

If you have access to the .mis files, then if your mission starts with TAKEOFF, your engine will have to be started, if the mission starts with NORMFLY then it is airstart, and your engine won't have to be started and no take off of course ... 

You can easily edit a mission file and add a TAKEOFF point, either by copying it from another mission starting from the same base, or by copying the LANDING line but of course renaming it TAKEOFF ...

Case N°1: with TAKEOFF:

[MAIN]
  MAP Northern_Africa_Jir_v3/load.ini
  TIME 16.2
  CloudType 1
  CloudHeight 950.0
  player RAF_No112SQN00
  army 1
  playerNum 0
[Wing]
  RAF_No112SQNb00
  RAF_No112SQN00
  RAF_No614SQN00
[RAF_No112SQNb00]
  Planes 4
  OnlyAI 1
  Skill 2
  skin0 Tka Blank1 RAF Egypt 1940.bmp
  skin1 Tka Blank1 RAF Egypt 1940.bmp
  skin2 Tka Blank1 RAF Egypt 1940.bmp
  skin3 Tka Blank1 RAF Egypt 1940.bmp
  Class air.GLADIATOR2MOD
  Fuel 100
  weapons default
[RAF_No112SQNb00_Way]
  TAKEOFF 821102.66 71051.76 0 0 &0  <== Takeoff line, so engine must be started
  NORMFLY 821094.15 71998.44 200.00 230.00 &0
  NORMFLY 822993.79 72199.80 400.00 230.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 824391.91 71004.39 500.00 230.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 821980.01 66006.66 500.00 270.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 769074.42 6612.45 500.00 270.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 767524.69 4248.50 500.00 270.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 767711.09 3501.66 500.00 270.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 768981.81 999.30 400.00 230.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 770755.07 160.94 300.00 230.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 771984.81 118.54 200.00 230.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 772205.79 660.99 200.00 230.00 &0 F6
  LANDING 772224.31 1104.70 0 0 &0

Case N°2 airstart:

[MAIN]
  MAP Northern_Africa_Jir_v3/load.ini
  TIME 15.200001
  CloudType 0
  CloudHeight 1200.0
  player RAF_No112SQN00
  army 1
  playerNum 0
[Wing]
  RAF_No112SQN00
  RAF_No014SQN00
  80Squadriglia00
  RAF_No112SQN01
[RAF_No112SQN00]
  Planes 4
  Skill 2
  skin0 Tka Blank1 RAF Egypt 1940.bmp
  skin1 Tka Blank1 RAF Egypt 1940.bmp
  skin2 Tka Blank1 RAF Egypt 1940.bmp
  skin3 Tka Blank1 RAF Egypt 1940.bmp
  Class air.GLADIATOR2MOD
  Fuel 100
  weapons default
[RAF_No112SQN00_Way]
  NORMFLY 772190.92 5727.96 200.00 230.00 &0 F6  <== no takeoff line, so mission starts with engine started
  NORMFLY 720178.77 29925.35 2000.00 270.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 638008.82 57605.93 2000.00 270.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 614856.08 60237.64 1000.00 270.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 593093.38 63059.60 500.00 270.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 591991.17 65029.14 500.00 270.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 592001.43 66026.82 500.00 270.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 592990.31 66474.96 500.00 270.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 594009.30 66461.69 500.00 270.00 &0 F6
  LANDING 598175.94 66350.80 0 0 &0

[agracier]

... well, you're being very vague here, what kind of missions ...? 

If you have access to the .mis files, then if your mission starts with TAKEOFF, your engine will have to be started, if the mission starts with NORMFLY then it is airstart, and your engine won't have to be started and no take off of course ... 

I was talking about missions that start in the air. Every now and then, for no reason I can figure out, in a mission starting in the air my plane will appear with the engines turned off. It will continue gliding but I have to manually start the engine. This usually works, but not always. Sometimes the engine does some turns, sputters and stops (while in the air). Once that happens it is no use trying a 3rd or 4th time.

I would like to know what causes that, but as it happens with planes that normally do start a mission with engines on, I can make neither heads nor tails why.

[Mick]

... ah, OK, then open the .mis file you're talking about and check 2 things that can explain this ...

[RAF_No112SQN00]
  Planes 4
  Skill 2
  skin0 Tka Blank1 RAF Egypt 1940.bmp
  skin1 Tka Blank1 RAF Egypt 1940.bmp
  skin2 Tka Blank1 RAF Egypt 1940.bmp
  skin3 Tka Blank1 RAF Egypt 1940.bmp
  Class air.GLADIATOR2MOD
  Fuel 0  <== fuel is set at 0 (so change it to 50 or 70 or 100 ...)
  weapons default
[RAF_No112SQN00_Way]
  NORMFLY 772190.92 5727.96 2000.00 00.00 &0 F6   <== speed is 0 (but then you should be able to start the engine ...)
  NORMFLY 720178.77 29925.35 2000.00 270.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 638008.82 57605.93 2000.00 270.00 &0 F6
  NORMFLY 614856.08 60237.64 1000.00 270.00 &0 F6

[Vampire_pilot]

I think he talks about QMB missions?

I encountered this before, a long long time ago when I had a messy mod install and I presumed it had to do with some mod incomaptibility.
It was connected to certain aircraft though.

[agracier]

I think he talks about QMB missions?

I encountered this before, a long long time ago when I had a messy mod install and I presumed it had to do with some mod incomaptibility.
It was connected to certain aircraft though.

Just talking about self-made missions. In full mission builder. Missions that I put together myself.

[Vampire_pilot]

okay,

But any hint about specific aircraft pairings in these missions maybe?
setting fuel to 0 is too easy... also you could not start the engine in air with no fuel and would get a HUD message.

[WxTech]

In all the years (nearer to 2 decades than 1) I've played Il-2, not once has this occurred to me.

Now, while fiddling with Wind.class, and setting sufficiently large gust values, upon starting an air-start mission the plane would *instantly* destruct due to the wicked amount of sudden lift that was computed. Or if the plane managed to remain intact, there would be an instantly humongous and violent jerk to the plane in 2 or 3 axes simultaneously, with nothing nearly so drastic happening anytime subsequently.

I wonder if the way air starts are handled could be improved upon. What I've observed seems to suggest an immediate execution of gust or turbulence that is effectively applied in that instant of going from zero velocity to your set speed. That is, in terms of timing ticks, the first might have the plane as having no velocity history until the second or third tick, with that first tick being treated as zero airspeed. If the code waited a beat, allowing the plane to establish its velocity vector sans turbulence/gust application, this would result in a more sedate, less violent lurch upon the moment of the air-start.

Anywho, that's just the musings of a bloke having next to no knowledge of the flight model workings.

[Mick]

Just talking about self-made missions. In full mission builder. Missions that I put together myself.

... OK, just post one or two "faulty" missions then, so that we can take a look ... 

[barber]

Hi  agracier!

In QMB missions you must choose to the hostile side some other plane than default!
When you open the mission and choose  your plane only, the hostile side stays the same
as you opened the mission. In my experience that causes the problem you mentioned,
anyway it has done it several times.

Cheers
Barber

[larschance]

Could it possibly be something to with the difficulty settings. There is an option to restart temperamental engines by repressing 'I' for example. This replicates the multiple prop swings of the early days. Could this procedure be interfering with air starts.