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Author Topic: How does everyone feel about the game at this point?  (Read 7132 times)

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SAS~Storebror

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Re: How does everyone feel about the game at this point?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2019, 09:42:54 AM »

not for the bosses .. they want to have the new Ferrari! Or Lear Jet. Or so ..  :D
In IL-2 Great Battles you can actually talk to the boss himself.
I was all about to grab a ticket for a flight to london in december just to get to talk to him in real life but you know... x-mas time, not playing time.
I would bet my ass though that he took a normal, scheduled flight and left all the Lear Jets and Ferraris at home.

Honestly, AI in IL-2 Great Battles currently sucks balls and 1946 is much better in that regard, if only at the cost of a "cheating" AI where instead IL-2 GB's AI has to deal with just the same flight model like you do.
Anyway, it's the future. As I like to say "deal with it".

]cheers[
Mike
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vonofterdingen

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Re: How does everyone feel about the game at this point?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2019, 01:16:17 PM »

We just can't compare the Forgotten Battles business model to the Great Battles business model. I was probably not alone when I got IL-2 Pacific Battles and was shocked as the free content started pouring in from 1C Maddox Games. Those were indeed great days but as others have said on this thread, the devs need to make money. If we want to play, and I for one do want to play, then we must support them.
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TheOligopolist

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Re: How does everyone feel about the game at this point?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2019, 04:41:00 PM »

We just can't compare the Forgotten Battles business model to the Great Battles business model. I was probably not alone when I got IL-2 Pacific Battles and was shocked as the free content started pouring in from 1C Maddox Games. Those were indeed great days but as others have said on this thread, the devs need to make money. If we want to play, and I for one do want to play, then we must support them.

I don't really understand this logic.
The game isn't up to a standard I think quite a few of us agree we think it should be, at least on the single player front. But we should just keep buying what they put out in the hopes they improve it?

The game is many years old at this point and the AI has not really improved to any significant degree from what I can see, all the while they are happy to advertise the games many single player features right on their website while the very core pillar of this aspect is not up to an acceptable standard. I believe the root cause of this is right there on their website:

Quote
Unlike many other sims, AI pilots must perform the same control movements to fly their aircraft, equalizing the chances between man and machine.

A similar thing happened with the racing sim Assetto Corsa. For many years the AI was terrible. They would get stuck behind each other, they were slow and would only follow a very set racing line. In other words, they were absolutely useless, all the while they were touted as unique because they used the same physics engine as what the player was running on. Sound familiar?
This situation didn't improve for several years until the devs gave the AI a helping hand by basically giving the AI some physics cheats for when they got themselves into tricky situations. This allowed the dev team to improve the AIs race craft without having to worry about them spinning out when things got even a little bit hairy. Now the AI in Assetto Corsa is actually quite fun and competitive  to race with.

It would be nice if we had super computer AI that could handle working with the same limitations that the player has but I've seen in other games that this doesn't really work in practice. I think until they give the AI a helping hand in the physics department this situation won't improve. They may have to remove that bullet point from their sales blurb but they can replace it with an even better one.

"Challenging AI that is exciting and fun to dogfight with."

That sounds a lot better to me.

Of course, bare in mind that I am not a fly on the wall in the devs office so take what I say with a very large (mountain sized) grain of salt.  :)
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sniperton

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Re: How does everyone feel about the game at this point?
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2019, 05:11:55 PM »

Quote
Unlike many other sims, AI pilots must perform the same control movements to fly their aircraft, equalizing the chances between man and machine.
I think you nailed the core of the problem. It was a design decision made very early in the development cycle, and it has proven to be a major obstacle meanwhile. The problem is that we know it was a bad decision, and they know it was a bad decision, but 95% of the people out there have zero knowledge of what exactly should be redone from scratch. From scratch, repeat, from scratch. It would be something like changing tyres on a bike while keeping it running in a race.
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JonRedcorn

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Re: How does everyone feel about the game at this point?
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2019, 05:15:25 PM »

In regards to everything besides the AI its hands down the best ww2 combat sim you can get your hands on. Nothing even comes close. If you enjoy online gameplay then there's no other alternative.
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SAS~Gerax

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Re: How does everyone feel about the game at this point?
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2019, 06:11:13 PM »

As I like to say "deal with it".

Now, when the game is not made for single players pilots like 1946 is
than I will (mis-)use it as a tank simulation ..  :D
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SAS~Storebror

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Re: How does everyone feel about the game at this point?
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2019, 10:26:49 PM »

From a simulation perspective, the Tank Crew part is probably much more behind than AI in BoX is.
Anyway.

The AI needs to receive an overhaul and as much as I understood Jason over at il2sturmovik.com, he and his devs are definitely aware of this.
And if I understood his explanations further on, they've got one core programmer only and that person isn't the most experience one when it comes to AI programming.

Time to summarize the issues you have:
AI overhaul requires you to turn the game's core logic inside out.
You've got one programmer with sufficient insight in the game's internal logic only.
But that one might not have sufficient insight to AI logic.
So you'll have to hire - at least - one more guy who is top notch in AI programming. Mind you these people don't grow on trees.
At the same time, you have to keep the ball rolling.
Your dev team needs to pay their debts as much as you have to.
AI overhaul will easily take half a year, or more.
When you start doing it, you can't stop anymore.
In the meantime, you can't work on other big projects, meaning: No progress on "early access" modules and no new modules at all.
Means: You could only start this task when all current "early access" modules have been finished.
And since you can only do little "teaser" projects in the meantime, like single collector planes being mostly outsourced to other partners, you have to make sure that at the starting point of this monster project, you have collected sufficient money to pay your team for 6+ months with seemingly no business.

That's where we are.
People put money in the game for new planes, new modules, new tanks.
No one comes around saying "oh yeah! now that you touch AI, I will decide to throw 200 bucks at you and jump on the train!". No one, ever.

]cheers[
Mike
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SAS~Gerax

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Re: How does everyone feel about the game at this point?
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2019, 11:22:31 PM »

You've got one programmer with sufficient insight in the game's internal logic only.

And when this guy gets seriously ill, or finds another better paid job .. what happens then?  :o

Anyway, what ever they do, there is something about this BoX what forced me to buy
all the modules. I really like the planes, the landscape etc. And for an improved AI?:
I can wait ..  :)
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SAS~Storebror

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Re: How does everyone feel about the game at this point?
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2019, 11:48:07 PM »

You've got one programmer with sufficient insight in the game's internal logic only.
And when this guy gets seriously ill, or finds another better paid job .. what happens then?  :o
Then you hope that this guy put lots of meaningful comments into his code.
Seriously: What would you do if you've got just enough money for one programmer?

]cheers[
Mike
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sniperton

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Re: How does everyone feel about the game at this point?
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2019, 03:08:28 AM »

Seriously: What would you do if you've got just enough money for one programmer?

And it's not just about the flight AI. Any new tech introduced to the game requires programming. I guess it's one of the main reasons why the Pacific is delayed. Kuban could have been a testbed for naval ops, but with Tank Crew the opposite direction was chosen, which is, from a game logic perspective, only an enhancement of already existing techs and features. Put simply, they don't have the programming resources to create a new game in the sense as PF was a new game over FB.
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JonRedcorn

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Re: How does everyone feel about the game at this point?
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2019, 05:44:22 AM »

From a simulation perspective, the Tank Crew part is probably much more behind than AI in BoX is.
Anyway.

NO FULL QUOTES PLEASE!


This pretty much sums up perfectly the situation over there.

Honestly think the tank crew thing was a misguided move and a waste of funds. They are outsourcing the models as they are with the Flying Circus project, but they are still paying somebody to make this stuff. Somebody on the team is doing the legwork on the tank module as well. Wasted resources IMO, an attempt to chase the war thunder crowd. They really do need to figure something out in regards to getting the AI in a working state as of right now they are hopelessly terrible. Quick mission battles starting at higher altitude are about as good as it gets. Stukas are broken completely, the HS 129 AI is completely broken, basically all ground attack is broken. They have been doing incremental upgrades to the AI with each patch. But like you said the entire thing needs ripped out and rebuilt from the ground up. There's only like 3 commands to give to the flight, they don't even follow those orders, trying to simulate any type of realistic air combat is just out the window. Which really is terribly disappointing since in my opinion it's one of the best "sims" on the market. The graphics are incredibly beautiful, the maps are huge and well done, the planes fly really great, there's just so much there with AI being the only thing holding it back.
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SAS~Storebror

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Re: How does everyone feel about the game at this point?
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2019, 06:19:50 AM »

an attempt to chase the war thunder crowd
Spot on, and it fires back on them.
See the new Tank map, where players had nothing better to do than fly low and fast across it, just to report that it stutters like hell.
What a surprise!
There's a reason why even multi-million-dollar jet simulators have a very simplified terrain/building/ground vehicle model.
It's about the same reason why for any money you are willing to spend, you would not get such "real life" tank/helicopter/jet simulator into one.
It just doesn't fit.
A Tank simulation's requirements just slightly overlap with those of a CFS game.

Therefore I absolutely agree, as much fun as it brings to play TC early access, it just doesn't fit the IL-2 Great Battles game engine and I'm afraid it never will.

]cheers[
Mike
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