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Author Topic: Help required  (Read 4227 times)

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Stainless

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Help required
« on: November 03, 2017, 03:09:28 AM »

I have changed the way the flight dynamic model works to make it more realistic.

The system that most people use (including JBSIM and YASIM used in flight gear) makes approximations about key elements. Like fuel tanks. A fuel tank is basically modeled as a cylinder as far as the physics is concerned. This is better than just ignoring it and just treating it as part of the aircraft's mass, but is pretty crude.

I also want to have a lot of realistic damage effects. So fuel tanks can be holed, hydraulics damaged, radio, engine and radar can take hits.

I realised yesterday that it is easy to do both things.

The physics engine I am using can handle objects as meshes. So you add a collision mesh to the msh file that defines the shape and location of a fuel tank, I pass that into the physics system and it calculates the inertia tensor from the shape. I just need to play with the mass and the shape as the fuel level decreases.

With the addition of other collision meshes as well it removes the randomness in the damage code. So you can actually target weak points in an aircraft and get the results you expect. Also if your aircraft gets hit, you have to manage the damage. Pumping fuel from damaged tanks to undamaged ones. Using the MFD HUD repeater if the HUD gets damaged. Anything we can think of.

Of course that does mean that someone has to add these collision meshes to the aircraft.

At the moment the only two I need doing are the F16 and something for it to go up against. I can't see a modern mig in the list, but anything would do.

Once I have something to work with it other aircraft can wait until I have released something you can play with.

Anyone interested?
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Pursuivant

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Re: Help required
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2017, 03:08:38 PM »

Very cool that you are planning these things, it will go a long way to making the flight and and damage models more realistic, and might eventually allow for more realistic simulation of fluid dynamics for things like leaking tanks or deliberate fluid ejections like fuel dumping, sprayed liquids, or in-flight refueling. It would also allow for realistic calculations of things like fuel starvation for planes which don't have fuel injectors or pressurized fuel systems.

If you wanted to get even more complex with the damage modeling, please possibly consider some mechanism for modeling the mechanical properties different materials as well as the basic physics of hydrostatic shock on fluid-filled containers. That would allow the damage absorption capacities and fluid loss properties of a "self-sealing" fuel cell to be modeled differently from those of a bullet hitting a solid metal tank. (More simply it would allow correct "damage decals" to be applied to hits on external parts made from different materials - splintering for wood or composites, tears and flapping material for canvas, punched holes for metal.)
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Stainless

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Re: Help required
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2017, 11:46:06 AM »

Damage application based on materials is already planned..... well actually started would be a better phrase.

Fuel tanks have a type specifier, which ranges form ... well .. bucket, to self healing synthetic.

I haven't got around to the code yet, but it's in the pipeline.  :D

I am only mortal, but I am a damn good mortal.  8)
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Dimlee

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Re: Help required
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2017, 12:26:40 PM »

Just wonder would it be possible to simulate different effects of a bullet penetration of:
- full tank - fuel leaking as the only result
- empty/almost empty tank full of vapours - immediate detonation
- empty tank equipped with inerting system - no other result than holes.
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Stainless

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Re: Help required
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2017, 11:11:25 PM »

Just wonder would it be possible to simulate different effects of a bullet penetration of:
- full tank - fuel leaking as the only result
- empty/almost empty tank full of vapours - immediate detonation
- empty tank equipped with inerting system - no other result than holes.

Yes. I have also built in a fuel type variable. So a tank filled with modern avgas behaves differently from a solid rocket booster, or exotic fuels like HTP etc.
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Stainless

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Re: Help required
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2019, 12:56:46 PM »

Hi Guys,

I am trying to create a texture to go on the table in the RAF sector stations for the Battle Of Britain part of the game.

But I am stuck.

I have dug around for ages looking for a copy of the RAF sector map. Can't find anything other than a few partia nl images.

Anyone help?

This is what I have so far



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vonofterdingen

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Re: Help required
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2019, 03:35:13 PM »

I think this is what you are looking for. I took this from Canon's original (beta) channel map. The guy was pretty good about getting the details correct:


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Pursuivant

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Re: Help required
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2019, 06:19:07 PM »

I have dug around for ages looking for a copy of the RAF sector map. Can't find anything other than a few partial images.

Are you looking for a map that covers all of the UK or do you just need one which provides more information about the sectors you've got?

If you're wanting a map which gives more coverage of the UK, this is the best I could find so far:

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-RAF-I/maps/UK-RAF-I-5.jpg

It doesn't cover Northern Ireland or the Scottish Highlands, but it extends the map you've got. Keep in mind that 13 & 14 Fighter Groups were sort of a combined reserve and Operational Training command which was progressively stripped of men and machines as the battle progressed. They had the impossible job of defending every bit of the UK north of Liverpool to the Shetlands and West to Belfast and beyond. No. 13 Group covered the Midlands and North. No. 14 Group covered Scotland.

Here's another map which provides better coverage of Wales and Cornwall and also depicts a bit of Ireland:

https://sites.google.com/site/battlegbr1940/_/rsrc/1354151409750/home/bobmap.jpg?height=577&width=471

If you want more detailed info on the important sectors in SE England and the Midlands then this map might help (Ignore the Almany Stock image BS - it's taken from the Duxford Air Museum)

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-map-of-uk-showing-wwii-air-defence-sectors-and-airfields-90842400.html

This map is very similar to the above, but labels things slightly differently:

http://www.warfaremagazine.co.uk/articles/the-battle-of-britain-britains-defences-1940/53

For Scotland, here's the southern extent of No. 14 Group's coverage:

https://www.classicwarbirds.co.uk/images/articles/bob-timeline-14-group.jpg

Try doing image searches by specific Fighter Group (11, 12 are the ones that took the brunt of the fighting) or subsector using keywords like "Battle of Britain," and "Group Sector Map" to get more specialist information.

FWIW, here's a link to the High and Low Chain Home Radar Coverage area:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Chain_home_coverage.jpg

Edits:

Nice big map of No. 11 Group Sector:

https://doverhistorian.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/th-fighter-command-groups-and-sector-boundaries-airfields-squadrons-18-08-1940-bofb-mem-capel.jpg

Labels for No. 11 Group Sectors:

https://www.battleofbritaintours.co.uk/detailed-map/

Period map of approximately the same area:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AIR-41_16_1940-Battle-Britain.jpg

And, paydirt if you were looking for a full group sector map for the UK:

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-Defence-UK/img/DefenseOfUK-23.jpg

In fact, this e-book has lots of good maps and other data about the battle. I believe that it's an official military history published by the RAF.

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-Defence-UK/index.html#contents
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Stainless

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Re: Help required
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2019, 02:51:57 AM »

 :D

You guys have come up with all the same things I found.

It's frustrating as hell, the groups you can see pretty easily, with variable level of detail, but the sectors are a nightmare.

They either cover them all really nicely, but name them after the base airfield instead of the official sector codes, or they only cover a single group.

This one is almost perfect   http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AIR-41_16_1940-Battle-Britain.jpg but it doesn't cover enough area.

At the moment I am using QGIS to generate a map from a shape file, then adding detail by hand, but I am not a graphic artist.

This is what is known in the trade as "programmer art"  :P

The area displayed in the map I generated is based on a single image of 11 group headquarters I have in a book I bought.

To give you some more detail, this image is to be used as a texture drawn on top of a table in the 3D scene that represents 11 group headquarters.

WAF officers will be animated plotting the incoming raids and you will be able to issue commands to all the squadrons in 11 group. Then jump into an aircraft as you wish.

So ....

Do you think I should start again?

Use QGIS to generate a map of the correct area then detail it to look like the period map and use the airfield names for each sector (which is not correct, but would make game play easier) ?

Do any of you guys want a go at this?



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Pursuivant

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Re: Help required
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2019, 03:35:13 PM »

Bummer that I couldn't help.

Since you're in the UK you might be able to get local resources that others can't.

A potentially perfect solution is a really good photo of the surviving plotting maps at Duxford and elsewhere. Sadly, that would require a bit of access and some camera techniques that required permission of museum staff.

I'd also bet that the UK national archives has all the maps you need. You'd just have to send email to the appropriate contact person or get someone to go to the National Archives and photograph the relevant documents. The ideal person would be an underemployed history PhD since the doctoral degree allows them access as "legitimate academic researchers," which is sometimes harder for less qualified people to obtain. Alternately, you get such a person to write you (or your researcher) a letter of introduction which will get them in the door.

It might also be possible to have NA staff photograph the desired documents for you since they offer a copying service (for a fee).

It appears that the mother lode is in Air Series 16 (Fighter Command) or close to it:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C506742

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C506432

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C506433

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C506438

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C506609

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C506691

This is the sort of file research that has me absolutely dancing at the prospect, except that I don't have a PhD and I'm on the wrong side of the ocean.
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Stainless

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Re: Help required
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2019, 01:50:02 AM »

 :) Finding the time to go to Kew is not easy. Also the cost is just stupid.

You are looking at £100 on trains assuming you travel off peak, then another £100 on taxis to get to where you actually need to be. Then food, beer, etc.

I am trying to request copies of the maps, but the server keeps crashing. Government websites. Say No More.

I have a backup plan.

Tangmere is not too far from me. It's £250 to become a lifetime "Friend of Tangmere" which gives you access to the archives and things not available to the general public.

Might be worthwhile.

This is what I am currently using, it's rubbish and needs to be re-created, but it'll do for now.



And this is where it will be when I get time to do it.




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Pursuivant

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Re: Help required
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2019, 03:59:13 PM »

While I'd consider the idea of taking an extended trip to an archive to be a sort of holiday, I can understand why you would not.

Anyhow, it might not be necessary.

I finally got off my ass and started checking my actual library/e-book library. I think that I've got exactly the map you need.

It's a declassified map of all the Fighter Command Sectors as of July 1940. If it's a reproduction, it's a very good one.

The book title is:

All About History Book Of The Battle of Britain
© 2015 Imagine Publishing Ltd
ISBN 9781785460647

p. 40-41

PM me and I can send you an image of the pages in question.
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