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Author Topic: Iran-Iraq War campaigns - Jet Wars over the Schatt al-Arab  (Read 10207 times)

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markino

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Re: Iran-Iraq War campaigns - Jet Wars over the Schatt al-Arab
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2019, 03:48:06 AM »

Hi vamp, I am at the last mission of the amazing MiG-21 campaign and I am preparing for the Su-22 campaign. Where could I find flight parameters for this plane?

I am refer to rotate speed, climb speed, landing configuration and landing speed, etc..

Thanks for your help! Ciao!

Marco
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SAS~vampire_pilot

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Re: Iran-Iraq War campaigns - Jet Wars over the Schatt al-Arab
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2019, 04:14:10 AM »

No idea tbh.

And also no idea how close to the real deal this is modelled in Il-2. I found the Su-20/22 types very straight forward and easy to handle in terms of take-off, landing and flaps/brakes. The sweep is done automatically for you, not like in real life.  Makes everything easier too.

others may know more about real life procedures.
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Cafs

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Re: Iran-Iraq War campaigns - Jet Wars over the Schatt al-Arab
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2019, 11:54:41 AM »

Probably very similar of Mig-21PMF. Here (metric= Km/h, meters...) :

  Vmin 270    --->  rotate to takeoff
  Vmax 1300.0  --->  max speed above sea level
  VmaxAllowed 2500.0   --->   max speed before a/c breaks apart
  VmaxH 2200.0   ---> max speed at height
  HofVmax 11500.0  ---> ideal height ( so: 2200Km/h at 11500m height)
  VminFLAPS 240.0   --->  full flaps
  VmaxFLAPS 600.0  ---> combat/takeoff flaps below this
  Vz_climb 130.96134   --->  circa 130m/s zoom climb
  V_climb 618.00494  --->  best climb speed
  T_turn 22.715391  --->  turn time
  V_turn 618.00494  --->  best turn speed
  Range 1200.0   --->  Range   :D
  CruiseSpeed 600.0  --->  cruise at 600Km/h


Cheers.
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SAS~vampire_pilot

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Re: Iran-Iraq War campaigns - Jet Wars over the Schatt al-Arab
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2019, 12:06:02 PM »

are these the values from the FM file?

I think markino was asking about real live handbook data
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Cafs

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Re: Iran-Iraq War campaigns - Jet Wars over the Schatt al-Arab
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2019, 02:22:58 PM »

"I think markino was asking about real live handbook data" :

-- Just in russian/cyrilic.

"are these the values from the FM file?":

-- Yes. To fly a simmulator you need sim values, not real ones. :O

Read the FM file like a Pilot's Notes:

1-  Rotate/takeoff= at 270 Km/h, not before  :D
2-  Best Climb = close to 618 Km/h, continuous best climb performance. Faster and you'll reach height later, slower and you could stall.   :O
3-  For best range=  cruise at 600 Km/h. (more speed=more fuel burned)
4-  Keep close to 600 Km/h for best turn performance.
5-  Landing = approach at between 350/400 Km/h, deploy flaps 1, close to 300 Km/h deploy landing gear, full flaps at circa 250 Km/h and no more then 50m. touchdown close to 220 Km/h.

Cheers.
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BT~wasted

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Re: Iran-Iraq War campaigns - Jet Wars over the Schatt al-Arab
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2019, 12:18:04 AM »

Probably very similar of Mig-21PMF. Here (metric= Km/h, meters...) :

  Vmin 270    --->  rotate to takeoff
  Vmax 1300.0  --->  max speed above sea level
  VmaxAllowed 2500.0   --->   max speed before a/c breaks apart
  VmaxH 2200.0   ---> max speed at height
  HofVmax 11500.0  ---> ideal height ( so: 2200Km/h at 11500m height)
  VminFLAPS 240.0   --->  full flaps
  VmaxFLAPS 600.0  ---> combat/takeoff flaps below this
  Vz_climb 130.96134   --->  circa 130m/s zoom climb
  V_climb 618.00494  --->  best climb speed
  T_turn 22.715391  --->  turn time
  V_turn 618.00494  --->  best turn speed
  Range 1200.0   --->  Range   :D
  CruiseSpeed 600.0  --->  cruise at 600Km/h


Cheers.

That's great that you have learned how to decompile and open FMD files, but there is no need to provide false information to other users.

Those values are leftovers from older versions of IL-2. Some of them still read by the game but not even all and they definitely are not the main parameters that effect the plane behavior.

Real FM calculations are made by these values:
Quote
[Polares]
  lineCyCoeff 0.04
  AOAMinCx_Shift 0.7
  Cy0_0 0.006
  AOACritH_0 22.0
  AOACritL_0 -16.0
  CyCritH_0 0.96
  CyCritL_0 -0.7
  CxMin_0 0.036
  parabCxCoeff_0 3.9E-4
  Cy0_1 0.2
  AOACritH_1 25.0
  AOACritL_1 -16.0
  CyCritH_1  1.15
  CyCritL_1 -0.7
  CyBFlap  0.052
  ThrustBFlap 2000
  CxMin_1 0.07
  parabCxCoeff_1 5.0E-4
  parabAngle 6.0
  Decline 0.004
  maxDistAng 40.0

[Supersonic]
  VminMach 0.9
  VsoundMach1 0.98
  CfsoundMach1 1.4
  VsoundMach2 1.2
  CfsoundMach2 1.2
  VmaxMach 1.25
  CfmaxMach 1.03

So as you see its a bit different here. And it would be very hard to judge about real behavior of the plane in game.

And please always remember that Vega (author of the FMs of almost all jets) is extensively uses JAVA codes to model some specific characteristics of the particular plane.

And a last note:

Su-22 brief flight characteristics:
Code: [Select]
Wing span:
  min:   13.68
  max:  10.025
Length: 18.86
Height: 4.86
Wing square:
  min position:   38.49
  max position:   34.45
Mass:
  empty:   10445
  takeoff:   18820
  fuel:   3770
Engine:   1 ТРДФ Р-29Б-300
Thrust:
  max:   1 х 8000
  afterburner:   1 х 11500
Max spee:
  near ground:   1350
  at higher altitude:   2230
range:   2500
Combat radius:   590
Max altitude:   14000

Code: [Select]
Wing span:   7.15
Length:   14.10
Height:   4.71
Wing square:   23.00
Mass:
Take off:   7820
Max:   9120
Fuel: 2200
Engine: 1 ТРДФ Р-11Ф2С-300
Thrust:   1 х 6175
Max Speed:
  at altitude:   2230
  near land   1300
Practical range:
  without fuel tanks   1300
  with fuel tanks   1670
Max altitude:   19000

So as you can see just by these brief characteristics MiG-21PFM and Su-22 are way too different planes with many peculiarities each, and telling a person that is new to these types of planes that they can be piloted in the same way is just plainly wrong. Think at least of wing sweep change.

So please just don't fool people.  :)
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markino

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Re: Iran-Iraq War campaigns - Jet Wars over the Schatt al-Arab
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2019, 02:54:12 AM »

"I think markino was asking about real live handbook data" :

-- Just in russian/cyrilic.

"are these the values from the FM file?":

-- Yes. To fly a simmulator you need sim values, not real ones. :O

Read the FM file like a Pilot's Notes:

1-  Rotate/takeoff= at 270 Km/h, not before  :D
2-  Best Climb = close to 618 Km/h, continuous best climb performance. Faster and you'll reach height later, slower and you could stall.   :O
3-  For best range=  cruise at 600 Km/h. (more speed=more fuel burned)
4-  Keep close to 600 Km/h for best turn performance.
5-  Landing = approach at between 350/400 Km/h, deploy flaps 1, close to 300 Km/h deploy landing gear, full flaps at circa 250 Km/h and no more then 50m. touchdown close to 220 Km/h.

Cheers.

Hi Guys, thanks for your help!!

Maybe the notes shared by Cafs are not so accurate but surely they are a good starting bases. When I played the MiG-21 campaign I used the DCS MiG-21 parameters and they worked fine, but I haven't find any DCS manuals for the Su-22.
I will check Cafs parameters shared and I will report you my impressions. I think the landing speed could be more close to 400 km/h rather than 350 km/h, but I will test it next days....

Ciao!

Marco
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Cafs

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Re: Iran-Iraq War campaigns - Jet Wars over the Schatt al-Arab
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2019, 06:27:01 AM »

Hi BT, that's close to the behavior of Su-22 in game.

If you have more Pilot's Notes tips to share all of us will be glad to learned from it.

I'm not perfect, the game are not perfect (close to, but not perfect), who are?

Cheers mate.
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Cafs

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Re: Iran-Iraq War campaigns - Jet Wars over the Schatt al-Arab
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2019, 07:50:25 AM »

Hi Markino, after a simple flight, just 20 min, here my conclusions:

1-  Best cruise speed=  600-620 Km/h. No trim. Above 620 Km/h start nose down trim.
2-  Best speed to range=  600-700 Km/h. Fuel consumption = circa 30 Kg/min.
3-  Turn performance = best between 600-650 Km/h, =10 degrees/sec.
4-  Landing = descend below 600 Km/h - Landing Gears at 520 Km/h - Flaps 1 at 450 Km/h - Flaps 2 at 400 Km/h - Touchdown between 320-350 Km/h - deploy Dive Brakes and Parachute + wheel brakes.

Cheers mate.
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markino

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Re: Iran-Iraq War campaigns - Jet Wars over the Schatt al-Arab
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2019, 12:48:52 AM »

Hi Markino, after a simple flight, just 20 min, here my conclusions:

1-  Best cruise speed=  600-620 Km/h. No trim. Above 620 Km/h start nose down trim.
2-  Best speed to range=  600-700 Km/h. Fuel consumption = circa 30 Kg/min.
3-  Turn performance = best between 600-650 Km/h, =10 degrees/sec.
4-  Landing = descend below 600 Km/h - Landing Gears at 520 Km/h - Flaps 1 at 450 Km/h - Flaps 2 at 400 Km/h - Touchdown between 320-350 Km/h - deploy Dive Brakes and Parachute + wheel brakes.

Cheers mate.

Hi Cafs, many thanks for sharing!! I will start next days my Su-22 training! ;)

Ciao!!

Marco
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Cafs

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Re: Iran-Iraq War campaigns - Jet Wars over the Schatt al-Arab
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2019, 06:07:44 AM »

Ciao Markino!

I think we'll need here at SAS a Pilot's Notes or Kneeboard section, for sharing info like this one.
All simulators have a Pilot's Notes like thread, DCS and MS FlightSimulator(s) have one or more topics for Pilot's Notes info.
Even test pilots, the real ones,  have Notes for his/her first flight, passed down by the air company engineers.

We here have been flying blind for many years, with the experience/expertise kept by any of  us that took to the virtual skies every week, but just for himself.

Ciao!

Carlos.
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markino

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Re: Iran-Iraq War campaigns - Jet Wars over the Schatt al-Arab
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2019, 02:04:06 AM »

Ciao Markino!

I think we'll need here at SAS a Pilot's Notes or Kneeboard section, for sharing info like this one.
All simulators have a Pilot's Notes like thread, DCS and MS FlightSimulator(s) have one or more topics for Pilot's Notes info.
Even test pilots, the real ones,  have Notes for his/her first flight, passed down by the air company engineers.

We here have been flying blind for many years, with the experience/expertise kept by any of  us that took to the virtual skies every week, but just for himself.

Ciao!

Carlos.



Fully agree with you, Carlos! Before long I will share my experience with MiG-21.

Ciao!

Marco
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