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Author Topic: Russian expert shooters and other things  (Read 2358 times)

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DavidHayabusa

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Russian expert shooters and other things
« on: February 13, 2017, 03:24:39 AM »

I downloaded CUP with 4.12.2m patch version and I am astonished by the change that the game went through.

Now the thing is, I have been playing as Germans or Japanes against the Russians in QMB. I find that the Russians aim almost perfect, have far fewer casualties than the Germans. This does not happen once. Is the Russian AI buffed too much? Also, I find that the AI had become difficult when it comes after me. They aim as if they are seeing me through the cockpit gauges when I do tight turns with my Zero. Even if I come after them from their blindspot, they just start do manuerves.

Is anyone else experiencing this?
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bomberkiller

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Re: Russian expert shooters and other things
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2017, 04:31:53 AM »

Hello DavidHayabusa,

what you describe there is the reason that I love my old 4.10 & DBW so much!  ;)

Best regards, Gerhard  :)
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SAS~Storebror

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Re: Russian expert shooters and other things
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2017, 09:50:13 AM »

Time to get rid of myths about AI it seems.
  • IL-2 AI doesn't change it's capabilities depending on which side they're flying for.
    The russian AI is as good as any other nation's one.
    (Planes might differ, but please not just another FM discussion, thanks).
  • AI doesn't distinguish between AI and human player planes.
    I'm not talking from bum's feeling but from having investigated the code that drives AI, and I didn't just take a quick peek at it, I've ported it back from 4.13's AI to Ultrapack 3 (which as you might know is 4.10 based, aka old style Java only AI code).
  • AI doesn't see through cockpit panels and cannot see you in their blind spot since Patch 4.11 anymore, not even through clouds (*).
    Old style AI (4.10 & DBW) did indeed have radar eyes, new AI doesn't, they perfectly respect visibility limits.
    (*) The thing about clouds is that hiding inside clouds only works offline.
    Online "your" clouds aren't "other's" clouds, including AI.
    Where you hide inside clouds there's bright blue sky for others and vice versa.
    Offline it works however.
  • What the new AI of 4.11 and later patches does do perfectly is cooperation.
    Without any delay, AI wingmen warn other AI wingmen about enemies on their six.
    They come to help each other.
    They keep trapping you by letting one AI pilot fly more or less straight, just to get you focused on him, and when you're just about to get into shooting distance, the next AI wingman will snap you from the bait's six. New AI is perfect in this regard.
  • New AI at veteran level is extremely good at deflection shots.
    New AI at ace level additionally is extremely good at head-on attacks.
  • New AI is generally performing well in balanced fights and extremely well when they're outnumbering their opponents.
    New AI sucks big times when they're outnumbered and have to defend themselves.
  • 4.10 & DBW AI sucks big times in any regard.
    Against rookie, normal and veteran AI you can win any fight by simply flying a smooth prolonged turn in any direction.
    In that situation, AI will waste all their ammo falling short behind you, then they'll simply overshoot and fly straight in front of your nose, waiting for you to shoot them down.
    In case of ace AI, you have to apply a little rudder in your prolonged turn, this will let them shoot besides on the outside of your slip.

Best regards - Mike
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SAS~Gerax

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Re: Russian expert shooters and other things
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2017, 10:57:40 AM »

Thanks Mike for this explanation.  :)
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Blaubaer

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Re: Russian expert shooters and other things
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2017, 11:07:17 AM »

Thanks Dr. Storebror.  ;D Is there something concerning IL 2 you don't know, Mike?
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edc1

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Re: Russian expert shooters and other things
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2017, 11:18:34 AM »

What a great explanation of AI and it's tactics,
something to bear in mind when you get shot down!
This sort of info should be in a Il2  manual for us thick oh's to read and absorb .
Cheers mike
edc1(stan)
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DavidHayabusa

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Re: Russian expert shooters and other things
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2017, 02:24:16 AM »

Either I have a faulty install or completely do not know. I did battle tests and found out the Russians seem to have better percentage of winning against the Germans . I tried 16 vs battles, the Germans all Bf 109s and Russians assortment of Yak 1, Lagg 3 and Il-16. Not one German plane survives and with the loss of 6 to 8 Russian planes.
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sniperton

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Re: Russian expert shooters and other things
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2017, 05:00:34 AM »

You can come to various results depending on altitude and situation. What you simulate in the QMB is exactly what was taught to be avoided in RL. Air combat is about gaining advantage before the engagement and relying on your strengths, and what you discovered is simply the truth of the saying 'never engage in a dogfight with a Zero'.

4.10 & DBW AI sucks big times in any regard.
Against rookie, normal and veteran AI you can win any fight by simply flying a smooth prolonged turn in any direction.
In that situation, AI will waste all their ammo falling short behind you [...]

I still observe this in 4.12. The AI gets a sort of target fixation and wastes its ammo without adjusting aim in such situations. On the other hand, the AI is astonishingly precise in constantly hitting whatever spot he aims, as precise as a human would never be due to recoil and head-shake effects and rough control movements. I have the impression that the average AI is inferior to average humans in aiming, while it's superior in hitting whatever spot it aims.
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Dimlee

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Re: Russian expert shooters and other things
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2017, 06:19:22 PM »


(*) The thing about clouds is that hiding inside clouds only works offline.
Online "your" clouds aren't "other's" clouds, including AI.
Where you hide inside clouds there's bright blue sky for others and vice versa.
Offline it works however.[/li][/list]


Thanks for the hint about AI's ability to look through the clouds online. I have suspected that when my Mossie was persistently chased by AI Bf109s on one server but was not sure.
No problem with human players though. "My" clouds are "their" clouds as well. Good for lonely bombers. At least it was so in 4.13.1-2.
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SAS~Storebror

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Re: Russian expert shooters and other things
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2017, 12:18:12 AM »

No problem with human players though. "My" clouds are "their" clouds as well. Good for lonely bombers. At least it was so in 4.13.1-2.
I'm sorry but I can't confirm.
Clouds are initialized randomly client-local, there's no sync between client-server or client-client, therefore if your clouds were at the same spot like other player's clouds, it's simply been a lucky coincidence.

Best regards - Mike
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Dimlee

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Re: Russian expert shooters and other things
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2017, 03:18:57 PM »

No problem with human players though. "My" clouds are "their" clouds as well. Good for lonely bombers. At least it was so in 4.13.1-2.
I'm sorry but I can't confirm.
Clouds are initialized randomly client-local, there's no sync between client-server or client-client, therefore if your clouds were at the same spot like other player's clouds, it's simply been a lucky coincidence.

Best regards - Mike

This is interesting. I didn't communicate to pilots who chased me in and around the clouds but noticed that some of them did break away when I was in "my" clouds (climbing up and waiting), while other continued to follow me. I have never been shot down or damaged inside of "my" clouds, however. Not during 2016 session, at least.
But I see your point. If there is no sync, my hide and seek tactics was just a placebo. Need to try again when I'm back online and talk to the fighter who'll go after my Bf-110.
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SAS~Storebror

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Re: Russian expert shooters and other things
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2017, 01:09:58 AM »

It's a sad thing that clouds aren't synced, but this is out of reach for modders unfortunately since cloud generation is hard-coded natively in il2fb.exe.
As much as I understood, this puts it out of reach for TD too.
While they have the sources required to change it, there's some kind of "gentlemen agreement" not to touch il2fb.exe apparently.

Best regards - Mike
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