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Author Topic: BOMBSIGHTS - 413 or 412 CUP?  (Read 3041 times)

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SAS~Monty27

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BOMBSIGHTS - 413 or 412 CUP?
« on: November 03, 2016, 07:12:01 AM »

BOMBSIGHTS - 413 or 412 CUP?

I have recently spent some time getting to grips with the new Bombsight in TD 413.  Partly for my own satisfaction, partly curiosity etc.

After working through a wall of text I started re-mapping keys.  There are so many to apply that I was quickly running out of keyboard and had to make copious notes to remember what went where. 

That's OK - All aircrews have to train, so let's learn.  Of course, there are precious few bombers in 413 but some of the important ones are covered and off we went to bomb a Quick Mission Bridge.

The display on the B-24, for example, is still pretty basic.  The numbers come up where you expect and the bombsight 'clutch' is designed to padlock a ground target and steer the aircraft over it.  It's difficult though, and there are so many parameters to constantly adjust on the bombsight that its difficult to keep ahead of the picture.

The thing is; all of these bombsight representations in the sim are just that, representations.  The real three dimensional tactile sensation, depth and additional data is not truly possible to reproduce on a flat screen.



But all those bloody numbers and keys!  I'm stabbing away at the keyboard, totally dis-orientated and time is running out as we approach the target.  Surely there is a better way!

Ironically yes, there was a better way in 410, and imported into 412 CUP, a long time ago.  SAS~Benitomuso has designed many Il2 HUD improvements.  Using a combination of text, position, function and colour he produced a representation of contemporary WWII bombsights that feels so much more intuitive, ie; easy to learn.

I would rather get to grips quickly with a concept and go bombing in the right 'spirit' if you like.  SAS~Benitomuso's (PAL's HUDMOD) sight presents the same information but provides a clearer picture and a much faster visual solution. 

Let's set up our approach to the target at a steady, known altitude, and a good regular airspeed.  With the aircraft settled straight and level at your bridge, or in the next 412 test a very tricky ship convoy, you can simply adjust Bombsight Altitude (the adjustable numbers on the right hand side) to the known value (the RED text bottom left) and Bombsight Velocity (up on the right again) to match your true airspeed (also shown in the RED text).

That's it, maintain that height and speed and the Angle predicted in the Yellow text will bring the crosshairs over your hitpoint.  Adjust the sight to the angle indicated, fly the crosshairs over the target and pickle!

So with three sets of key commands - Sight-Altitude, Velocity and Angle (aka Elevation) you can set up the sight in seconds while flying the plane from the Bomb-Aimer's seat!  With a little practice you can get very accurate with this system and it seems to me a far better representation of what is going on.

TD 412 Code changes broke the modded bombsights in a lot of addon aircraft.  413 totally destroyed them, including mods like PAL's HUDMOD, which is so much better!

Many great modders, especially 412 conversion specialists like StefanSG, SAS~Gerax and SAS~Epervier, have repaired most of them and we now have a fleet of bombers in CUP, from all nations, to rival any sim collection anywhere.

Give it a go, the Mossies are good, most of the B25s, the B24J, the B-17, The Lancaster, Wellington, Halifax, He-111 family, Ju-88 family, the Dorniers etc.

Not all mods are bombsight fixed yet, although none of them are even present in 413 anyway!  Working with what we have in 412 CUP (with more on the way and more being fixed for 412), there is already massive scope in CUP for any would be BN to start ground-pounding with deadly accuracy right away.

My conclusions? - Bollocks to the vaunted 413 Bombsight, with the greatest respect, we already have something far better right here. 

Here's a few shots of what I'm talking about.  These sights are using PAL's HUDMOD without Visual mod - I will make sure everyone has this option, through JSGME, with the next #WAW Part-21 update...







Here are some more shots from bomber types in CUP #WAW.  This time we are also using the full PAL's Visual MOD 9.  Either way, all these sights function properly and provide pinpoint bombing accuracy...








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eMeL

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Re: BOMBSIGHTS - 413 or 412 CUP?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2016, 09:08:24 AM »

Excellent review. Thx for sharing. Never bothered to study this area of Il-2 as I mostly just want to shoot the bombers down, but to those who want to lay waste the ground, very much worth reading with good examples and reasoning :)

PS:
Please, check your PM.

ATB,
eMeL 
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SAS~Storebror

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Re: BOMBSIGHTS - 413 or 412 CUP?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2016, 01:00:54 PM »

Excellent post Simon.
As much as I appreciate TD's attempt to get the B-24D done right, and as much as this copes with the implementation of autopilot-coupled bombsight gears etc.:
The threw out the baby with bathwater.
Once more.
Unfortunately.

There's so many good reasons to stick to 4.12.2m for modding, this might just be one of them, but it's important and it's good that you've pointed it out so clearly.

Best regards - Mike
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SAS~Monty27

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Re: BOMBSIGHTS - 413 or 412 CUP?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2016, 03:05:31 PM »

I do like a clear picture to help explain what is going on.  For me its even easier than U-Tube vids.  Everything these days is either U-Tube vids or wall of text, you noticed that?

Our 412 CUP fleet with PAL's Bombsight is not there in isolation either.  Among the items TD 'threw out with the bathwater' were CY6's Command and Control, with a thousand brilliant effects and functions and also Sputnikshock's night-fighter radar, navigation and radio ranging. 

For true bomber and night-fighter pilots this whole suite of addons is critical.  A great deal of work within CUP (thanks to Sputnikshock) got all of these features working again, with the exception of CY6 Recon and SAR, for which we designed new FMB workarounds.

I was ready to start again with a new CUP for 413 - But in all honesty with so much missing stuff you have to ask yourself; "what kind of players are going for this?"

412 CUP is hardcore and absolutely huge - But its still the most comprehensive combat flightsim and the easiest and fastest thing in the known universe to install!

Personally, I have been spending time making missions with the vastly expanded 412 CUP FMB - Well on the way to completing 50-Campaign sets each for WWI and SCW.  100 new campaigns then its into the big one, the iconic battles of WWII.  These missions feature all the great stuff introduced with TD 412, the new AI, player controlled spawning, taxi to takeoff etc.  With 412 TD really did make Il2/1946 into a proper flightsim.

Its wonderful to create busy airfields and park your aircraft where you want them.  To see them start up beside you and taxi out.  All campaigns prior to 412 are now dead to me - long live 412 - The CUP FMB has everything we need in there.  Nothing else comes close...  8)

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tomoose

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Re: BOMBSIGHTS - 413 or 412 CUP?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2016, 08:35:00 PM »

I'd like to add one small but important point, namely, the target's altitude.  It isn't really an issue if your map is generally flat which most maps are but believe it or not the game does model ASL (not realistically I'm sure but it simulates something along the lines of height ASL) which includes the height of your target.  i.e. if your original intended bombing altitude is 10,000ft and your target is sitting on a mountain at 900ft then you're actual bombing altitude setting should be 9,100ft otherwise your drop will not be accurate (all other things being equal)......get the idea?   ;)

Our little online group found out some subtle bomb result differences while running an Italian B-25 campaign.  Knowing the height of your target above ASL and adjusting your bombing altitude setting in the bombsight accordingly makes for outstanding bombing results.  The only method I know for determining a target altitude is to use FMB, open up your specific map/mission, place a human-pilotable aircraft on/near the target then start the mission and look at the altimeter in the cockpit, note the altitude, close the mission without saving.  You'll find that sitting in the cockpit on the ground will give an altitude reading of hundreds of feet ASL depending on where you're sitting on the map.

A clunky method definitely but I did this for a few of our "higher ground" targets and provided the ASL height of the target to our group prior to a mission and it made a big difference in their bombing accuracy.  Generally it was only a few hundred feet but I did some offline testing and compensating for the target's height vs your bomb altitude setting does make a difference.

Just tossing it out there.  Hope it helps.    :)
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SAS~Monty27

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Re: BOMBSIGHTS - 413 or 412 CUP?
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2016, 05:17:10 AM »

I'd like to add one small but important point, namely, the target's altitude.  It isn't really an issue if your map is generally flat which most maps are but believe it or not the game does model ASL (not realistically I'm sure but it simulates something along the lines of height ASL) which includes the height of your target.  i.e. if your original intended bombing altitude is 10,000ft and your target is sitting on a mountain at 900ft then you're actual bombing altitude setting should be 9,100ft otherwise your drop will not be accurate (all other things being equal)......get the idea?   ;)

Our little online group found out some subtle bomb result differences while running an Italian B-25 campaign.  Knowing the height of your target above ASL and adjusting your bombing altitude setting in the bombsight accordingly makes for outstanding bombing results.  The only method I know for determining a target altitude is to use FMB, open up your specific map/mission, place a human-pilotable aircraft on/near the target then start the mission and look at the altimeter in the cockpit, note the altitude, close the mission without saving.  You'll find that sitting in the cockpit on the ground will give an altitude reading of hundreds of feet ASL depending on where you're sitting on the map.

A clunky method definitely but I did this for a few of our "higher ground" targets and provided the ASL height of the target to our group prior to a mission and it made a big difference in their bombing accuracy.  Generally it was only a few hundred feet but I did some offline testing and compensating for the target's height vs your bomb altitude setting does make a difference.

Just tossing it out there.  Hope it helps.    :)

Wow that's brilliant Tomoose!  Got that noted good.  Any thorough bomber campaign should therefore include this detail in the briefing notes, an excellent detail to keep in mind, thank you.
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spartan18a

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Re: BOMBSIGHTS - 413 or 412 CUP?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2016, 10:19:09 AM »

What I coincidence that I'm just learning to use the bomber calculator both online and downloaded (even in my mobile phone) in Il2 ....
http://www1.bbiq.jp/~zhukov/calc/calc_wind.html



I would love to learn the way you suggest with VisualMod V9. Is the info in the new HUD all the information we need and makes the bombing calculator redundant? Is there a mod to include the bombing calculator into the game as this HUD from Benitomuso?
What about the wind factor and the sideslip corrections we need?

Could you please make some kind of tutorial missions for bombing just like you did with the jets? It would be a great addition to CUP!!!!  :)

Thanks pal  :D



In the second video I tried the HUD but without really understanding how to use it ....


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Re: BOMBSIGHTS - 413 or 412 CUP?
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2016, 12:26:23 PM »

This is a super thread Monty.
I couldn't agree more with the "simpler and more immersive" mantra.
I have one small comment - it seems to me that the info in the bombsight mode on the right side of the bombsight info screen could be in a more effective colour than dark blue. For old eyes the information is a tad too dark , and hence prone to be difficult to see against the dark backgrounds of trees/water/night shrouded ground.

Thanks for your efforts , and especially your clear and visually supported information.

Kopfdorfer
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tomoose

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Re: BOMBSIGHTS - 413 or 412 CUP?
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2016, 01:34:23 PM »

I've cut and pasted an old post I made about the basic steps for bombing.  It is essentially using the stock version (i.e. there is no mod to the bomb sight).
Use these steps along with my previous post about target altitude and your bombing should be spot on........
.......
First off you MUST map your bombsite keys in your control setup. My suggestion is to use the numberpad keys located to the right side of most modern keyboards as they have no function (IF you are using a joystick with a hatswitch to "look around"). If not then any available keys will do, your choice.

Second, make sure you have the "auto level stabilizer" control mapped also (NOT "toggle auto-pilot" that's another thing altogether) this is critical in assisting with the bomb run using the bombsight.
Okay, you've mapped your keys, you're in your bomber, now what?

1. Set the bombsight to the altitude and speed you intend to bomb at. This can be done (try and get into the habit) prior to takeoff or well before reaching the target using your bombsight keys. For example you want to bomb your target from 10,000ft and intend to fly at 220mph. Using the Increase/Decrease Bombsight Altitude keys, set the alt to 10,000. Using the Bombsight Velocity keys set your approach speed (see NOTE ABOUT SPEED below). You will see the numbers indicated onscreen. You can change the viewing angle of the bombsight by using the Increase/Decrease Bombsight Distance keys (I always set this to 80 degrees as it will allow you to see the target in the distance vice looking straight down, you can decrease the angle as you approach the target so don't worry about it).

OK, you're in the air and on approach to your target, now what?

2. As pilot, line up the plane with your target. Engage the "auto level". Press the "C" key to go to the bombardier's position then "Shift-F1" to put your "eye" to the bombsight. You will now see through the bombsight to the target area. You should see illuminated crosshairs also, unless the plane is still settling down from a turn in which case it will take some time to appear (the crosshairs will disappear/unlock if the plane is moved more than 4.5 degrees during a bombrun therefore SUBTLE movements only during the bombrun). If your target is still in the distance and approaching you can move the crosshairs up or down onto the target using the Increase/Decrease Bombsight Distance keys. If the bombsight is lined up with the target and centered then hit the Toggle Bombsight Automation key to "lock" and you will see that the crosshairs now stay with the target. If the crosshairs are drifting vertically off of the target then use your Bombsight VELOCITY keys to adjust it.
If the crosshairs are NOT lined up (i.e. you must move them horizontally) then you have a couple of options (in my opinion);
a. If close to the target, at the bombardiers station you can unlock autolevel and using subtle movements of the joystick to get the plane lined up and keep the crosshairs visible. Once happy then relock autolevel and resume your bombrun. NOTE: you can use rudder trim also to make fine adjustments instead of the joystick.  This takes time, practice and patience. OR
b. If you are far enough away and have the time go back to the pilot position unlock autolevel and make corrections from there (use your PDI and radio compass to assist you in getting right on course). Reset autolevel and go back to the bombardier's position and resume your bombrun.

If you've managed to set the crosshairs on the target and "locked" the bombsight on then continue to watch the crosshairs to make sure they stay on the target and the bombs will automatically release at the appropriate point and you will see a "bombs away" display and the plane will "lurch" as the extra weight is suddenly released. Unlike B17II, there is no "indicator" to tell you how close you are getting to "bombs gone", the "bombs away" message is it!

3. If everything is done correctly you should have the satisfaction of seeing your bombs hit the target (F7 should give you the target view).

4.  The left/right sight control is to adjust for wind 'deflection'.  It takes practice and a long bomb-run to be able to adjust left or right to compensate for 'drift'.  If you have wind speed set to zero then you don't have to worry about this.  If you have wind speed set to something other than zero, the previous steps still apply but you use the right/left adjustment to get the sight to run 'straight'.

NOTE ABOUT SPEED: The speed you are setting into the bombsight is NOT the speed you are seeing in the bottom left of your screen which is the INDICATED. You are setting the TRUE airspeed. Here we have a slight dilemma in that you can check TRUE airspeed using the Ctrl-F1 to cycle through the various No-Cockpit views when offline but many times online this can't be done as it's been disabled by the host so you are left to guess. A very GENERAL rule is to use the KIAS airspeed as that is close to TRUE airspeed or is close enough that only slight adjustments on the bombrun are necessary.

Now, you're done, right? Nope, not if you want to go further. If you are nice and comfortable with bombing as suggested above you will have noticed that there is no way to adjust the bomb interval if you use the auto-lock (i.e. hit the bomb switch and have just the first two bombs go, wait a couple of seconds then hit the bomb switch for the next pair and so on).  There are "bombing tables" (i.e standalone mini-mods which will calculate intervals for you at given heights and speeds) for manual bombing.  This is essentially repeating the procedure above without using the Bombsight Automation Key but releasing the bombs manually yourself.  If you search M4T or SAS I believe they still have bomb tables program (or at least charts).



I hope this helps, good luck. For any other readers, if I missed something by all means chime in.
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spartan18a

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Re: BOMBSIGHTS - 413 or 412 CUP?
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2016, 01:56:56 PM »

Great explanation Tomoose :)

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

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tartenmuche

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Re: BOMBSIGHTS - 413 or 412 CUP?
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2016, 03:26:02 PM »

Dear Spartan18a,
in your first video you are able to follow your bomb up to the target.
How do you do that?
Best regards.
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spartan18a

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Re: BOMBSIGHTS - 413 or 412 CUP?
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2016, 04:03:35 PM »

Dear Spartan18a,
in your first video you are able to follow your bomb up to the target.
How do you do that?
Best regards.

It is the wonderful ordenace camera from 4.13 that it is superbly impletented in the Visual Mod v9. I just love it!!!  :-*
I think it's adictive ....   ;)
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