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Author Topic: Fokker E.III performance adjustment.  (Read 3458 times)

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Fresco23

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Fokker E.III performance adjustment.
« on: November 25, 2015, 12:11:55 PM »

Now that we have a gorgeous Pfalz E.I in our tiny "Fliegertruppen des Deutschen Kaiserreiches", I will make one last tiny request to round out the German fighters.

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before. But I wish to bring this topic to discussion one last time.

Historically, Fokker E.II/III aircraft replaced the Pfalz machines in front line service, due to various performance advantages of the Fokker machines.

However we know also that the Pfalz machines soldiered on for a while, serving alongside their Fokker brethren.


Is it possible that some kind person may be able to bring the Fokker E.III up to par with the new Pfalz E.I in overall performance??

A portion of a table showing aircraft performances. As you can see the Pfalz is only barely faster than the Fokker. (presumably due to weight differences).
Code: [Select]
Geschwindigkeitsvergleich Kampfeinsitzer im Einsatz 1915/16

Baumuster Typ geliefert Jahr km/h
Fokker E.I 56 1915 130
Fokker E.II 23 1915 132
Fokker E.III 258 1915 140
Fokker E.IV 40 1915-16 160
Hanuschke E.I 6 1915 130
Pfalz E.I 74 1915 145
Pfalz E.II 80 1915 145
Pfalz E.III 20 1915-16 160

As it stands now, the new Pfalz and Morane-Saulnier machines easily out perform our old Fokker E.III. I wish to utilize these together from the same front line field. However its a bit difficult to do. The Fokker falls behind the Pfalz rapidly in level flight. If an enemy climbs above us, the Pfalz can climb up, albeit slowly, and still effectively maneuver and engage the enemy while the Fokker is left below struggling to maintain altitude much less climb. Scramble missions with the Fokker are mostly impossible, while the Pfalz can easily get airborne and defend itself.

What i wish to see is the Fokker brought on to level playing field with its contemporaries. In the best case, I think the Fokker should be able to climb on par with the Pfalz, and maintain nearly the same top speed. If not, then using the SAME FM for both would work also.

If i knew how, then I would gladly offer this solution myself, but i am unable.

Thank you for your patience!
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Asso di Spade - Ace of Spades

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Re: Fokker E.III performance adjustment.
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2015, 03:42:10 PM »

I agree... This request is very well placed.
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David Prosser

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Re: Fokker E.III performance adjustment.
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2015, 05:47:28 PM »

Good idea, I'd like to see that happen having read the evidence.

Alfie Noakes

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Re: Fokker E.III performance adjustment.
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2015, 12:02:30 AM »

+1
The E III takes an inordinate time to reach altitude...... :(
Mind you, with it's mag/ mixture controls I've got this sneaking suspicion that Lisek's E III's FM is closer to reality   o_O

Cheers

Alfie
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greybeard

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Re: Fokker E.III performance adjustment.
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2015, 01:42:38 AM »

Fokker E.III suffers from about a century of one of that "enough repeated lies that become truth".

Incredibly, ALL sources give a top speed of 87 mph (some even reach the "precision" of 87.5!) for this crate, repeating the output of a British test performed on a captured example whose engine was damaged! Notwithstanding the official report highlights this fact (worn out powerplant), everybody kept so far to state that speed.

Pfalz E.II, powered by same engine, is everywhere credited of a top speed of 94 mph. An important factor to take in account is that Fokker E.III warping wing was rigged by 4 wires over and under each wing side,



whilst the Pfalz E.II had 6 of them!



If you consider that those wires had each an air drag about equal to an airfoil TEN times thicker... It is OBVIOUS that the Fokker must reach at least same Pfalz speed!
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Alfie Noakes

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Re: Fokker E.III performance adjustment.
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2015, 08:39:02 AM »

Fair point, well made, greybeard..........

Cheers

Alfie
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SAS~vampire_pilot

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Re: Fokker E.III performance adjustment.
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2015, 12:46:21 PM »

There seems to be a trend forming.
Now, who unpacks the Fokker FM and cranks up the engine a bit?
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Whiskey_Sierra_972

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Re: Fokker E.III performance adjustment.
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2015, 02:27:07 PM »

Very good treat and suggestion!

I like the E.III but as it is now is almost unusable....

Good luck for furter upgrade....and if you need some beta test I promise that I'll find time for it!
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Dreamk

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Re: Fokker E.III performance adjustment.
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2015, 11:35:23 PM »

In a magistral paper written in October 2015 by Stephen Harker on WW1 Aircraft performances, we can find the following data that are worth considering:
Fokker E Types
The Fokker monoplanes E.I–E.IV were signi?cant Luftstreitkräfte single-seat ?ghters in 1915–16. The main
sources used are JM Bruce [37] and Gray and Thetford [76, pp 82–86]. These aircraft were responsible for the
so-called ‘Fokker Scourge’, although the actual loss rates of British aircraft to Fokker monoplanes does not seem
particularly signi?cant [99, p 29, table 1-1]. Engines known to have been used include: 80hp Oberursel (E.I,
E.II prototype and training versions); 100hp Oberursel U I (production E.II and E.III); 80hp Le Rhône (E.III
experimental); 100hp Goebel Goe. I (E.III experimental); 90hp Siemens-Halske Sh. I (E.III experimental).
Performance ?gures are given in table 53.
•  Cecil Lewis [108, pp 51–53] reports that rumour had credited the Fokker with the most fantastic perform-
ance. When a Fokker was captured it was ?own against available scouts: the Morane Bullet (Morane-
Saulnier Type N), Morane Parasol (Morane-Saulnier Type L or LA, two seaters?), Morane Biplane
(Morane-Saulnier Type BB), Nieuport (possibly Nieuport 16) and B.E.2c. All but the B.E.2c gave a good
account of themselves, the Morane Bullet climbed quicker, was faster on the level and out-manoeuvred
the Fokker. The speci?c model of the Fokker is not given.
Franz Immelmann [100, p 77] gives the Fokker E-type a top speed of 130 kph and a ceiling of about 3,500 m
which it can reach in about an hour. Franz Immelmann [100, p 143] gives the 160hp Fokker E-type a
maximum speed of 160–170kph and climb to 3,000m in 15 minutes.

[100] Immelmann,F.:2009,Immelmann:“The Eagleof Lille”. Philadelphia,USA:Casemate. Englishtranslation
by Claud W Sykes, ?rst published by John Hamilton in 1935 or 1936


(pay attention to the fact that the speeds in this table are in mph, while the speeds for the Pfalz in the next table are in kmh):



Pfalz E I, II and IV
The Pfalz E I, II and IV were Luftstreitkräfte single-seat ?ghter aircraft in 1915–16. The main source used is
Gray and Thetford [76, pp 183–186]. The main engine types known to have been use: 80hp Oberursel U O (E
I); 100hp Oberursel U I (E II); 160hp Oberursel U III (E IV). Performance ?gures are given in table 73.


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RealDarko

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Re: Fokker E.III performance adjustment.
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2015, 02:34:27 AM »

I'm interested in this one too. vpmedia, please check your PM I just sent a link.
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Airbourne

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Re: Fokker E.III performance adjustment.
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2015, 03:15:42 PM »

I am entirely in agreement that the Pfalz should not be a radically better aircraft than the Fokker. As an interim measure I tried taking the Pfalz FM file and putting it in the EIII folder. I have tried every variation on this theme, re-naming it, putting it in a separate folder so it loads first etc. but every time it either has no effect or gives me a 60% crash. Is there any way of doing this? Or is somebody about to come out with an amended FM for the EIII?
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greybeard

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Re: Fokker E.III performance adjustment.
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2015, 12:21:49 AM »

Renaming FM it is not enough; you should edit the Fokker E.III classfile and put the Pfalz engine. It's easier editing the two FM's copying all values (but engine Family and Submodel) from Pfalz and pasting into Fokker; same for the two engines, whose names must remain untouched.
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