Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[DaveP63]

The Hellcat had absolutely no chance of turning inside a Zero. This is straight from guys that fly both aircraft on a regular basis in real life.

They have regular "dogfights" with Hellcats, Corsairs and the Zero. The Zero needs to hold back considerably during rolls & turns so that the others can keep up.

Historically Hellcats avoided turning dogfights with Zeros and rather relied on B&Z attacks and superior group tactics. The US also had a significant numbers advantage.

Saburo Sakai also mentioned that the American pilots were reluctant to engage in turning dogfights. He found the British pilots were more willing to "mix it up" in a dogfight.

Keep reading. Generally correct, unless the fight in question took place a higher speed. Then there was no issue turning with or out turning zekes.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

I don't doubt for a second that the nuke saved thousands of US Marines and US Navy men the horror of the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands, hell, it probably saved the lives of thousands of Japanese too. But what a price to pay, huh?

Well I doubt actually. Official history on USA still say that of a million lives saved and so, but as Moggy says that's a moral justify and just propaganda because it seems a real calculation says it saved as much 50.000 soldiers lives but killed 300.000 civil and innocent people instantly, tenths may be hundreds of thousands by post radiation effects (effects negated by US government many time, "radiation is not harmful"  ???) and millions affected for their whole life with various illness and premature die. The price? I think the people who decided to do that were criminals... But hey, I'm European and thinking like that here is called common sense, thinking like that in USA is called being communist, socialist, traitor to nation and things like that isn't it? I don't blame you although have to wonder with that.


And talking about wonder, I wonder how the hell that's on topic about Spit IX 25lbs...  XDDDDDDDD

S!

[Moggy Cattermole]

As a matter of interest, 2/3 of the Manhattan project members voted, though they knew precisely what they had created, to allow it to be dropped, mostly because they wanted to see if it would really work etc. Whether it would have made any difference to the US gubmint if they'd all voted against is unlikely, but I still find it very interesting.

Strategic bombing is fascinating in the war - how effective, the moral question, its aims and intents, the doctrine, the tactics, the supreme human effort put into it by the aircrews and ground defence crews on the other side, and of course the huge devastion and tragic casualties it produced. I'm very tempted to start a thread on it, a la the winston churchill thread.

[Yeager_1946]

Generally correct, unless the fight in question took place a higher speed.

It has been established that the Zero will easily turn quicker than the Hellcat everywhere below 450km/h. Most sustained turning dogfights in WW2 took place far below that speed. And even if your engagement speed started high, as soon as you start chasing each other's tails the speed will drop off very quickly, right to where the Zero will easily out turn any Hellcat. The best tactic to use at high speed is B&Z attacks, keeping your speed up and not entering a turning dogfight.

[dinosaurJR]

Interesting points, all. I would also like to add that the US population was also quite prone to "war weariness" toward the end of the war. Don't forget, to the average Joe in Bumf*ck, Wyoming, the war was a long way away (in both directions, pre VE day, at least). A protracted invasion of the Japanese Home Islands might (and I'm saying might) have been the last straw for a population that had seen enough bloodshed for one lifetime. Remember, Pearl was a long time ago by this point and the Japanese were as good as beaten. The Allies knew this.

I guess "The Bomb" was an answer to a lot of problems at this point. I hadn't thought about the "Scientific (read Financial) Imperative" aspect before. You build a super weapon, you're damned well going to want to try it, what? Preferably on the opposition, hey? Good point Moggy.

On the topic of the Zeke vs the Hellcat - any maneuvering dog fight in WW2 era aircraft at speeds above 450KPH will not remain above 450KPH for long. You bleed energy like hell in a yank 'n' bank fight. This will drop combat speeds right into the sweet spot whereby the ninja like maneuverability of the Zeke will more likely than not come out the victor.

And on the topic of the Spitfire? Well... em... yeah...

[Moggy Cattermole]

Considering how other countries continued well into their war-weariness, who had themselves had the shit pulverised out of them, rather than reading about some distant war that didn't really affect Joe Civvie, I doubt this as a factor. Russia, Germany, Japan, Britain, Italy all pushed through worse on their populations. They had a just cause to fight for and were winning.

Scientific imperative was a factor, financial too, but do not think them one and the same. The gubmint was probably more interested in the financial imperative side of things, among the other reasons (intimidating Uncle Joe and the Soviet Union). The scientists wanted to see what they had created could achieve - because really.

Terry Pratchett sums up the attitude with his description of Wizards on the Discworld - 'They could never resisting giving a good tug on the fabrics of reality just to see what would happen, because they could.'

[Ass Eagle]

In Spitfire's case the benefits of elliptic planform (even lift distribution along the span) are nullified by the 2 degree twist (washout) that was needed for at least partially taming the nasty and violent stall behaviour of such wing. In short, the wing twist negated the effect of the elliptical wing. Although the wing was physically elliptical, its lift was not. Besides, wing aspect ratio has larger effect on the lift/drag characteristics than the Oswald efficiency factor (where the theoretical difference between Spit's and Bf 109's wing is only of magnitude of 0.05), and Bf 109's wing has higher aspect ratio than Spit's...

Zekes light weight and manuverability came at the cost. The Zeke COULD NOT engage/disengage the enemy WHEN it wanted. IE: no boom and zoom capability. Thats why Jap pilots tried to sucker Allied pilots into a slow speed dogfight. Case point: Marianas Turkey shoot.. zekes nimbleness meant nothing. nuff said.

[DaveP63]

Generally correct, unless the fight in question took place a higher speed.

It has been established that the Zero will easily turn quicker than the Hellcat everywhere below 450km/h. Most sustained turning dogfights in WW2 took place far below that speed. And even if your engagement speed started high, as soon as you start chasing each other's tails the speed will drop off very quickly, right to where the Zero will easily out turn any Hellcat. The best tactic to use at high speed is B&Z attacks, keeping your speed up and not entering a turning dogfight.

Keep reading.

[ANDYTOTHED]

In Spitfire's case the benefits of elliptic planform (even lift distribution along the span) are nullified by the 2 degree twist (washout) that was needed for at least partially taming the nasty and violent stall behaviour of such wing. In short, the wing twist negated the effect of the elliptical wing. Although the wing was physically elliptical, its lift was not. Besides, wing aspect ratio has larger effect on the lift/drag characteristics than the Oswald efficiency factor (where the theoretical difference between Spit's and Bf 109's wing is only of magnitude of 0.05), and Bf 109's wing has higher aspect ratio than Spit's...

Zekes light weight and manuverability came at the cost. The Zeke COULD NOT engage/disengage the enemy WHEN it wanted. IE: no boom and zoom capability. Thats why Jap pilots tried to sucker Allied pilots into a slow speed dogfight. Case point: Marianas Turkey shoot.. zekes nimbleness meant nothing. nuff said.

That said the Spit was light and had a bloody big wing area. This combined with the lightweight but damn powerful merlin allowed it to excel in all regimes except dive. Or at least according to a performance report.

[Ass Eagle]

What, other then ROC did it excel at? And as compared to what? I just see a slighty less then middle of the road aircraft, other then ROC. Also, out of the 5000 Mk IX's, how many were 25lb-ers? Of that, how many flew combat? When they flew combat, how effective were they? What was the roll rate? How many feet to make a turn @ xx mph? Stall charactoristics? How much damage could they absorb? Get where I'm going with this?

Blanket statements like 'allowed it to excel in all regimes' without factual backup just dosn't cut it.

[santobr]

Maybe this table can help:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/wade-comp-perf-chart1.jpg

This one too:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/wade-turning.jpg


santobr.

[Ass Eagle]

Thanks for that. I read the rest of the report. Interesting how they got those turn radias #'s.. 
Also 25lbs very very limited trials in 1943, & very limited actually using 25lb boost when full permission
was given in 3.44.