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[santobr]

Yes, one of the strategy adopted by Americans was to use great aces for training the new pilots.
In the other hand, Axis was losing almost all their aces on the front line.

I was testing a mission against Zeros yesterday with Spitfires. I was using HSFX that is based on 4.111m.
Fighting against Japanese Aces was impossible to use T&B tactics against them, my only chance was to use energy tactics like velocity and to climb.
And I needed to help my friends when they was in bad situation, this made all the diference because AI never helps its friends.
4.111m AI can use better the limits of an aircraft.
And don't forget to fight against enemies piloting fighters from the same year of yours.



santobr.

[ANDYTOTHED]

Woah, I was talking about pilot tenacity, not aircraft performance when I said Saburo was an idiot.

[Yeager_1946]

Woah, I was talking about pilot tenacity, not aircraft performance when I said Saburo was an idiot.

Sakai was definitely not an idiot. And pilot tenacity had nothing to do with what he noted. He merely observed what was a successful strategy used by the USAF... American pilots were instructed not to engage Zeros in turning dogfights because that is a fight the Zero would win.

Avoiding one-on-one turning dogfights was a good strategic move on the part of American pilots because that meant they didn't give Japanese pilots the chance to use their aircraft's maneuvering capabilities to their advantage.
American fighters would instead engage in B&Z energy attacks and specially developed group tactics because that is where they had the advantage in making the kill.

Many of the 64 aircraft that Saburo Sakai shot down were pilots that allowed themselves to be lured into a turning dogfight with him.

[Bombnick]

Hellcat could easily turn inside Zero - at high speeds. Stating that Hellcats didn't mix it up with Zekes is uninformed to say the least. They did, but only at high speeds, where Zero's controls were frozen as concrete. At, say, 500 kph A6M was one of the most un-maneouverable fighters of WW2.
Go below 350 kph and the story turns upside down.

[ANDYTOTHED]

Woah, I was talking about pilot tenacity, not aircraft performance when I said Saburo was an idiot.

Sakai was definitely not an idiot. And pilot tenacity had nothing to do with what he noted. He merely observed what was a successful strategy used by the USAF... American pilots were instructed not to engage Zeros in turning dogfights because that is a fight the Zero would win.

Avoiding one-on-one turning dogfights was a good strategic move on the part of American pilots because that meant they didn't give Japanese pilots the chance to use their aircraft's maneuvering capabilities to their advantage.
American fighters would instead engage in B&Z energy attacks and specially developed group tactics because that is where they had the advantage in making the kill.

Many of the 64 aircraft that Saburo Sakai shot down were pilots that allowed themselves to be lured into a turning dogfight with him.

Sorry it was my belief that he flew till the end of the war; I wasn't aware that he was wounded in action. That said He was only in the war till mid 1942 and had a few minor engagements afterwards. This was before effective anti zero tactics had been devised and likely contributed to his opinion.

[CWMV]

It's kinda funny, Galland said much the same thing. That the Americans were more trained killers, just looking for the qui k decisive kill, while the RAF was always up for a good brawl.
Somethings wrong with the English!

[Ass Eagle]

It's kinda funny, Galland said much the same thing. That the Americans were more trained killers, just looking for the qui k decisive kill, while the RAF was always up for a good brawl.
Somethings wrong with the English!

You sure thats what General Galland said about the USAAF. I believe in 'Killers' he was refering to some other act else, no?

[CWMV]

Those are my words, I cant remember his exactly. Been a while since I read the first and the last.

[Yeager_1946]

They did, but only at high speeds, where Zero's controls were frozen as concrete. At, say, 500 kph A6M was one of the most un-maneouverable fighters of WW2.
Go below 350 kph and the story turns upside down.

Almost all sustained turning dogfights in WW2 took place under 350 km/h. Besides, the Zero's turn time was significantly faster than the Hellcat's everywhere between stall speed and 450 km/h (comfortably within the speed range of most turning dogfights during WW2). And a Hellcat certainly won't be able to maintain 500km/h during a dogfight, not even close. High G maneuvers bleed off speed rapidly, and would quickly bring the speed right into the Zero's handling sweet spot where the Hellcat didn't have any chance of turning inside a Zero. If you're flying at 500km/h in a WW2 fighter, you're most definitely not in a turning dogfight. The Zero is renowned for it's maneuverability because it was extremely maneuverable in the speed range where sustained turning dogfights took place.

Trials flown between a captured Zero and the F6F Hellcat concluded:
“Do not dogfight with a Zero 52. Do not try to follow a loop or half-roll with a pull-through. When attacking, use your high speed performance to engage at the most favourable moment.”

Sorry it was my belief that he flew till the end of the war; I wasn't aware that he was wounded in action. That said He was only in the war till mid 1942 and had a few minor engagements afterwards. This was before effective anti zero tactics had been devised and likely contributed to his opinion.

Don't worry, I know you took what he said out of context. Not fighting where the enemy's strengths lie, doesn't mean avoiding a fight. It simply means that you deny the enemy the opportunity to fight the way they need to in order to win. Rather force them to fight where you have the advantage. It's smart tactics.

Sakai was badly wounded and lost the sight in his one eye in August 1942. Upon his released from Hospital in January 1943, he spent a year training new fighter pilots. After requesting to see active combat duty again, he was deployed to Iwo Jima in April 1944 where he saw action despite being blind in one eye. Although he wasn't the highest scoring ace of Japan, his 64 aerial victories meant he was one of the highest scoring aces that survived the entire war. After the war he met and became friends with many of the people he fought against during the war. He died in September 2000 at the age of 84.

[Bombnick]

They did, but only at high speeds, where Zero's controls were frozen as concrete. At, say, 500 kph A6M was one of the most un-maneouverable fighters of WW2.
Go below 350 kph and the story turns upside down.

Almost all sustained turning dogfights in WW2 took place under 350 km/h. And a Hellcat certainly won't be able to maintain 500km/h during a dogfight, not even close. High G maneuvers bleed off speed rapidly, and would quickly bring the speed right into the Zero's handling sweet spot where the Hellcat didn't have any chance of turning inside a Zero. If you're flying at 500km/h in a WW2 fighter, you're most definitely not in a turning dogfight. The Zero is renowned for it's maneuverability because it was extremely maneuverable in the speed range where sustained turning dogfights took place.

There's no need to go "high G dogfighting" when your prey can't do "high G maneouvering". If Hellcats kept it fast, they could mix it up with Zeros nearly carelessly. If Zeros stayed slow, Hellcats had no probs shooting fish in a barrel in hit and run (boom and zoom if you will) attacks. If Zeros attempted to deal with Hellcats at high speeds, they were at severe maneouvering disadvantage. Again, at 500 kph a hellcat could easily do, for example, a low-G a rolling scissors to not only evade a pursuing Zero but to reverse the situation and come to Zero's tail. Hellcat could easily turn inside a Zero - at high speeds (and, of course, given the Hellcat pilot didn't persist in a turn for too long as to loose too much speed in the process!). Plus: "Sustained turning" does not, by far, equal "dogfighting".

Of course, I agree with you - attempting to dogfight as violently as to loose the speed below 300 kph in such a situation was close to a suicide attempt for Hellcat pilot, especially at low altitudes.

The quote you've posted was intended for new pilots in order to keep them safe. Experts knew better when and when not to dogfight a zero.

[Yeager_1946]

The Zero could turn and roll much faster and pull more G's than the Hellcat could at typical dogfighting speeds, that is a fact. And although roll rate dropped off at high speeds (this could be compensated for somewhat by using the rudder), the Zero's turn time remained easily quicker than the Hellcat's everywhere between stall speed and 450 km/h. That is why US pilots were instructed not to dogfight Zeros, which is also a fact. They even went as far as to put it in writing not to dogfight a Zero. All dogfights include high G maneuvers and bleeding off speed, it comes naturally when trying to out turn your enemy. And the faster the engagement's initial speed, the faster the rate at which the speed drops. If you're not pulling G's, then either you or your opponent aren't really trying. The definition of dogfighting is aircraft trying to outmaneuver each other at close range in order to find an advantageous angle from which to shoot the opponent. This type of turning dogfighting simply didn't take place at 500km/h in WW2. These aren't swept wing Jets we're talking about... in fact the F6F3 Hellcat could barely reach 502km/h at sea level while flying straight and level with maximum power. It's TAS at high altitude was obviously more, but the point is it took some work just to reach 500km/h in WW2. Also remember that any Zero pilot worth his salt won't be fooled into following you into sustained dives and maneuvers reaching very high speeds. He'll let the Hellcat pilot dive away and get him when he comes back up for more. Of course if the Zero pilot is inexperienced (which was mostly the case after 1942), he probably would make such a mistake.

When the trial between the captured Zero and the Hellcat concluded: “Do not dogfight with a Zero 52. Do not try to follow a loop or half-roll with a pull-through. When attacking, use your high speed performance to engage at the most favourable moment.” The conclusion was applicable to pilots of all experience levels (most US pilots were experienced and very well trained in any case). They evaluated the aircraft not the pilots, so the findings of the trials were applicable to the Hellcat vs Zero scenario. Nowhere did it say: Experienced pilots can disregard the tactics that keep you alive. In fact, it's following such tactics that make a pilot experienced and good. This is the difference between a good pilot and a "cowboy".

You almost make the Hellcat sound like it can defy the laws of physics. Sure, it had a top speed advantage. But the fact is it wasn't better at everything and it certainly wasn't better at dogfighting (even the USAAF acknowledged this). The Hellcat was heavy (2.5 times heavier than the Zero). It's power to weight ratio was worse than that of the Zero (477 hp/ton for the Hellcat vs 604 hp/ton for the A6M 52 Zero). The Hellcat's wing loading was much higher and its power to wing load was also worse. The Zero could also climb faster at low and medium altitudes.

If your opponent was a complete novice that barely had basic flight training and could barely hold his lunch down while flying straight and level (which I must admit was mostly the case for Japanese pilots after 1942), then you might talk about shooting fish in a barrel, yes. And the experienced Hellcat pilots made absolute mince out of inexperienced, hastily trained Japanese pilots. But if the Zero pilot knew what he was doing, not even the best attempts by a Hellcat would be successful. This was demonstrated when Sakai single handedly held off 15 Hellcats without being hit by a single bullet. The Hellcat pilots were experienced, well trained naval fighter pilots but they still couldn't hit him. The Zero was an aircraft that could shine in the hands of a good pilot, while a poor pilot wouldn't get very far in it.

[santobr]

Unfortunatelly the Hellcat is slow in IL-2, it is very dificult to reach 500km/h.
I don't know why, and this makes this fighter almost useless in IL-2 because you can't use energy tactics against a Zero piloted by an ace or veteran.
The only chance will be stupid AI in a campaign and to help your friends if you are flying 4.111 version like HSFX.
There was already a post about the Hellcats here.



santobr.