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Author Topic: F-80C: Something seems to be wrong  (Read 3612 times)

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Narvik

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F-80C: Something seems to be wrong
« on: April 14, 2012, 01:23:39 PM »

Hello.
After ending of SCW week (thanks again Dreamk) I decided to refresh in memory jet features from DBW 1.71. I made a  mission in QMB about interception of large formation of B-29 covered by F-86A and F-80C (all veterans) by group of MiG-15 (average skill) and MiG-15bis (veterans). 1st surprise was that in some cases approximately 1/2 of my Migs were destroyed by Shooting Stars. 2nd surpise was when I realised that to shoot down F-80C is more difficult task than to "kill" Sabre. I was able to destroy a couple of them when they were returning home. AI could destroy them only in "nose-to-nose" attack run using MiG's greate firepower. I tried less complicated scenarios in QMB (4vs4 on altitudes 5000 and 7500) - result was the same: nor I nor my wingmen couldn't overtake, overturn or overclimb F-80C. It was almost impossible to escape their attacks in speed dive. When I set for my flight F-86A instead of MiG the situation was a little better (because of Sabre's maneuvreabilty), but tendency was the same - Shooting Stars continued to dominate in the sky, escaping my attacks in climbes as well as in dives.

My first thought was about my poor flying capabilities or some AI features. But when I "armed" my flight with F-80C and fought several times against MiGs and Sabres I got the 3rd surprise. I had absolutely no problems in reaching fire distance while attacking my swept-wings opponents. I was overtaking them in climbs, dives and turns and only ammo was a limiting factors.

I'd like to ask somebody who is competent in making and editing IL-2 FM to look and check characteristics for F-80C. This strange situation doesn't fit with known historical facts about Korean War where F-80 were replaced in fighter role by F-86 after the introduction of MiG-15.

Thanks anyway.
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Narvik

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Re: F-80C: Something seems to be wrong
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2012, 01:36:35 PM »

Yes, I have Misawa tanks loadout.

PS I've forgotten to mention a mod which adds opening canopies and and ejections seats for F-80s. I've installed it above DBW. Is it the reason?
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Narvik

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Re: F-80C: Something seems to be wrong
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2012, 01:47:11 PM »

Thanks for quick answer, SAS~crazyflak.
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Far77

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Re: F-80C: Something seems to be wrong
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2012, 10:42:19 PM »

My guess is that the problem PARTLY is in water injection which gives F-80C rate of climb close to F-86A. But the water injection was allowed at altitudes not higher 3 km due to danger of flame-out at higher altitudes. My guess is that AI don't know this... :)


By the way SAS~crazyflak posted that he plans to update F-80C with M3 Brownings which I guess (maybe I am wrong?) were not in Korea (but as I recall were in final modification of F-80C). Regarding this: its seems to me that I read somewhere about final version of F-80C  with more powerful engine modification- but currently I can't recall details... ) - so my next guess is that SAS~crazyflak already had insert the modified engine into F-80C.  :)

So probably it would be nice to have 2 version of F-80C: the "Korean" one (for those who want to fight in Korea ), and the "final" one with M3, etc.
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Far77

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Re: F-80C: Something seems to be wrong
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 05:40:26 AM »

Dear SAS~crazyflak,

As F-80c didnot have swept-wings, so I admit that it is hard for F-80C to fight with Mig-15 at high speed, that's why USAF urgently demanded Sabres..

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Narvik

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Re: F-80C: Something seems to be wrong
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 09:42:06 AM »

buttons F80A              GeneralElectricI-40     Thrust 1600.0
mass Empty             3537.6 

pack F80A              GeneralElectricI-40     Thrust 1700.0 #4000 pound-force = 17.792886 4 kN(1600 before)
mass Empty             3000





buttons F80C              GeneralElectricI-40     Thrust 1600.0
mass Empty             3000

pack F80C         GeneralElectricJ33-A-35    Thrust 2390.0 #5400 pound-force = 24.02039664 kN (2090 before)
mass Empty 3737.6  #8 240 pound = 3737.601 128 8 kilogram

Hello again.

I'm not an expert in American turbojet, but I'd like to clear for myself one thing. Is 24 kN of thrust (J-33-A35) standard maximal value for this engine? Or it is value for "additional low-altitude boost with water-alcohol injection", which is mentioned in Far77's post and Wiki article?
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Narvik

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Re: F-80C: Something seems to be wrong
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 12:56:40 PM »

No way I can limit it to low altitude, though, but nevertheless it is still better than before.
Mmmm...may be it's possible to play with some parameter, which is responsible for overheating. By the way, in Dreamk's Bristol Bulldog you can "break" your engine at altitude above 4500 m. Is it possible to go the same way?
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mojojojo

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Re: F-80C: Something seems to be wrong
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 01:08:27 PM »

hey crazy, im unable to locate the original F-80 stand-alone pack. did you remove it for these updates?
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Far77

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Re: F-80C: Something seems to be wrong
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 08:55:18 PM »

Dear SAS~crazyflak,

If we are talking about the whole f-80 pack...

Regarding F-80N,

Could you check, please: my impression that dropping-off the "tip-of-the-wings" fuel tanks from F-80N didnot improve roll rate. Or maybe I missed something?


I would like to thank you for your nice Shooting Star pack!






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Far77

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Re: F-80C: Something seems to be wrong
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2012, 10:13:29 PM »

More on F-80c

The info about not-using the water injection above 10000 feet is here
www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/to-1.pdf
but it concers J33-A-23 engine.

Not sure whether it concers improved J33-A-35


Anyway Migs had superiority at high speeds over F-80c due to their wings. But if dogfighting occurrs at low altitudes F-80c could be a dangerous opponent due its excellent maneuverability.
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Narvik

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Re: F-80C: Something seems to be wrong
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2012, 01:21:01 PM »

 I've just checked F-80C with "stock" DBW  FM in game and got impression that problem isn't only with engine thrust. My subjective opinion is that one of the coefficients which are responsible for vertical maneurability and rate of climb on medium (3-7 km) altitudes is incorrect. Of course I can be wrong. I also have an idea that some error could be "inherited" from stock IL-2 game, because YP-80 shows near same abilities in the battle against MiG-15. SAS~crazyflak, can you check FM data for F-80s and compare it with documents? If all is correct, then I think we should revise Panther's FM. Currently it is very easy target for MiGs in comparison with F-80C.

Regards.
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