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Author Topic: Flaw in flight models when dogfighting  (Read 7211 times)

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Whiskey_Sierra_972

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Re: Flaw in flight models when dogfighting
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2012, 01:53:46 AM »

Not always a new version of a plane is a pure better performance plane than older because it can be updated to have better performance at a different height performance as P51 was changing engine from Allison to Merlin , to be a more effective weapon platform as 109G towards the F and so on!

Before all try to search for that version you are comare and look if something is wrote about their difference...then try to think what those change can alter the performance between them...
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Roger Smith

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Re: Flaw in flight models when dogfighting
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2012, 12:20:32 PM »

the new FM is biased, almost nothing but Russian stuff can catch up with anything else

the jets feel very underpowered too, the only good plane with both speed and maneuver anymore is the Me-163
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CWMV

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Re: Flaw in flight models when dogfighting
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2012, 08:15:10 PM »

So what, exactly, are you basing these opinions on?
And which version of IL2 are you talking about exactly?

FM's are all biased? Come on man, thats sooooooooo 2005.
If its really that bad please, post up a new thread with some numbers. Im sure wed all be interested in something more concrete than your opinion.

I know its not "Ace Combat" *sneer* but its closer than any other sim out there in its current DBW state.
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Roger Smith

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Re: Flaw in flight models when dogfighting
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2012, 10:00:28 PM »

I may have been too quick to say biased, or maybe it was just a too strong word. I'll re-check the P-51 speed on IL-2 compared to real life data later.
as for the Ace Combat thing: it's not that the controls feel more realistic it feels more arcade now. Also, it feels weird... the planes can turn on a dime in one dogfight and at the next it all of a sudden feels like a cow.
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HundertzehnGustav

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Re: Flaw in flight models when dogfighting
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2012, 12:45:27 PM »

uh... a dime,
the american ten cents piece? (17.91 mm)
or the canadian one? (18,03 mm)

because that is a huge difference.
But maybe it is just your joystick not being calibrated?

Numbers... numbers are what one can work with in FM discussions...
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Roger Smith

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Re: Flaw in flight models when dogfighting
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2012, 05:58:20 PM »

AI does the impossible everytime I fly, it's one thing to have superhuman reflexes, but the planes themselves do the impossible. Bf-109s turning like a Zero and maintaining that high speed while turning, and right when they get behind you they all of a sudden gain a nice amount of acceleration, catching up to F-86s and MiGs with no problems.

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CWMV

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Re: Flaw in flight models when dogfighting
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2012, 07:19:14 PM »

Your either exaggerating or doing it wrong.
And I mean really wrong.
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256th_Killer9876

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Re: Flaw in flight models when dogfighting
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2012, 06:38:42 PM »

Actually, Solo isn't exaggerating I have the same problem and I've been flying the sim since it came out in '01. In a P-51D at altitude at cruising power I'm at 280mph but when I increase to combat power because I see a flight of 109s I all of a sudden my speed drops down to 190 to 210 mph, and I get shot down.
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CWMV

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Re: Flaw in flight models when dogfighting
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2012, 08:07:22 PM »

Then I stand by my previous statement-your doing something wrong.
Have a detailed account? Ive been flying this sim for 10 years now and never noticed anything like this.
Are you managing your PP correctly in the 51? Remember too that it bleeds energy like a stuck hog.
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256th_Killer9876

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Re: Flaw in flight models when dogfighting
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2012, 02:33:35 PM »

yeah because I increased my Prop Pitch from 85% to 100% to get the highest performance and then thats when I experienced the speed drop. (With the Increase of the throttle of course)
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CWMV

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Re: Flaw in flight models when dogfighting
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2012, 03:29:35 PM »

That may have something to do with it.
100% pitch does not give best speed. It's good for acceleration, but full prop pitch won't make you go faster. In fact in a dive its a wonderful air brake.
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dhtsword

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Re: Flaw in flight models when dogfighting
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2013, 07:32:11 PM »

That may have something to do with it.
100% pitch does not give best speed. It's good for acceleration, but full prop pitch won't make you go faster. In fact in a dive its a wonderful air brake.

Well, atleast up to 4.09b (which I use and have the classfiles) this statement is somewhat wrong.

The IL-2 engine is doing the following (based on very real world behaviour) with the Prop type of the P-51 (PropAnglerType 1) which is the standard "constant" speed type.
If you manipulate the Prop-setting you actually choose a RPM ranging from PropAnglerMinParam (1500 RPM) to PropAnglerMaxParam(3000 RPM).
Let's say you chose 3000 (100 % Prop) and 100% Throttle and then go to 110% Throttle or WEP:
1. Engine generates more power
2. At the current aerodynamic Prop AOA this would create more revs
3. Now the Prop governor increases Prop AOA so it stays at 3000 RPM
(In case PropPhiMax is exceeded no more correction is possible -> Revs will go up)
Now this increase in AOA will generate more thrust -> aircraft will accelerate until sum of drag is equal to generated thrust.
Around 95% of all prop driven aircraft in IL-2 use basically this constant speed type of prop. If you set it to "Auto" the Prop is linked to the throttle setting giving different RPM settings for Throttle settings.
If it really happens that an AC decelerates at full throttle when upping the Prop to 100% something is broken big time in the respective game version (either FMD(buttons) or Code).

The magic in IL-2 is that in using prop tuning one can have the equivalent of  +/-1000 HP:
1. Very high Prop-RPM (high Reductor settings, I have seen > 1.0 settings !!!!) -> high Propblade velocity which the game calcs as: square root of(((0.375 x Propdiameter x Pi x rev/s x propreductor)squared) x (airflowV)squared) up to 300 m/s brings only benefits and only small penalty for "supersonic" Props above 300 m/s.
2. PropAnglerSpeed is actually degrees per frame which for 4.09 means degrees per 0.03 seconds (later game versions use > 0.03 s per frame). So the 3°/s of the VDM Prop for instance are 0.09 IL-2 PropAnglerSpeed. If you up this value to 0.15 or higher you will experience dramatic performance improvements of the aircraft.
Together with reductor settings you can easily create a total dog with a 2000 HP engine or an UFO.
Now one cannot really take over real world data into IL-2 unseen (eg. Propreductor settings) because the IL-2 engine abstracts the prop functioning to much for that. So one can only finetune for correct hard fact values as climbrate, level speed but level-, dive- and climb- acceleration can only be guessed. Although for level acceleration the distance needed to takeoff is a very good indicator, because allmost all Aircraft Handbooks give values for that.
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