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Author Topic: 50 Cal. Gun Strenght  (Read 18667 times)

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Wildchild

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Re: 50 Cal. Gun Strenght
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2011, 05:16:30 PM »

Well you have to remember early transports had wooden decks along with early battleships and light aircraft carriers. Also some other spots that could be destroyed or damaged by 50's is the bridge that if shot out could damage speed and turning ability. Gun stations could be whiting of action like AAA. And power magazines could also pack a punch if a there was a bomb hole above the power magazine.

P.S. Rudder and power could be knocked out with a torp in the right spot.
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CWMV

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Re: 50 Cal. Gun Strenght
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2011, 05:41:49 PM »

Well you have to remember early transports had wooden decks along with early battleships and light aircraft carriers. Also some other spots that could be destroyed or damaged by 50's is the bridge that if shot out could damage speed and turning ability. Gun stations could be whiting of action like AAA. And power magazines could also pack a punch if a there was a bomb hole above the power magazine.

P.S. Rudder and power could be knocked out with a torp in the right spot.
A torpedo is a warhead, sometimes thousands of pounds of armor piercing explosive.
A .50 round is an ounce or two of lead, no need to even attempt to compare the two.
The battleships and AC carriers had armor plate beneath the wooden deck. As to the bridge your only real way of hurting the vessel is by killing the crew. Many of those combat vessels had secondary control stations that could run the ship if the bridge was neutralized.
If there was a bomb hole above the powder magazine then a .50 cal would be the least of your worries. The bomb that opened the hole in the first place will more than likely set off the magazine.
See your talking about what if situations here.
With most combat vessels a .50 cal will not be able to penetrate the deck/hull/magazine/guns emplacements. Lighter armored spots like AAA guns sure, but you have to know the capabilities of your weapon system before you try to use it.
For me I knew that if we came up against BMP's (and miraculously survived to get into firing range) that a .50 would pierce it from stem to stern. Anything heavier than that and my .50 would just alert the crew to my position.
Know you weapon systems, use them correctly, and you will get good results. Try using them against a target that's out of your league, IE combat vessels, and of course you'll feel that they are modeled incorrectly.
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andqui

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Re: 50 Cal. Gun Strenght
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2011, 08:25:22 AM »

Whenever ships were strafed in WW2 it was usually for suppression purposes. The barrage of .50's on the B-25 strafers was not intended to sink the ship but to suppress fire, cause mahem, and kill/maim people on the deck/bridge/exposed parts. This applies to most attacks on U-boats to the attack on the Yamato. It would take a tremendous number of .50 rounds to actually sink a ship. However, it is possible to hit something critical on occasion. I think there are some youtube guncam vids of a very small Japanese transport getting it's cargo or ammo or avgas blown sky-high by strafing, but I'm not sure that a critical hit like this is dependant on a Browning .50 cal, instead of a large number of API rounds from any heavy machine gun. The problem is actually in the ship damage models and the AI's behavior towards them. Shooting up the bridge doesn't make the ship any less organized, it's extremely difficult to take AA guns out of action through strafing. You can't get the critical hit, which should be next to impossible for large vessels and rare for small ones. Hell, the ship's don't even have a real AI- they don't turn to avoid bombs or swerve. And if they did, torpedo bombing in Il2 would be next to useless, as the AI doesn't know how to attack a ship from multiple directions or unleash a large "spread" or torpedoes in the direction of the target instead of lining up with methodical precision.
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HundertzehnGustav

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Re: 50 Cal. Gun Strenght
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2011, 09:19:19 AM »

Is it possible to weaken up some spots of a ship and keep other spots stronger? Like the
hull vs. smoke stack, or bridge vs. wooden deck?


point?a punctured smoke stack wont sink the bugger. a shredded bridge wont change its speed or course or general behaviour.

Quote

Well you have to remember early transports had wooden decks along with early battleships and light aircraft carriers. Also some other spots that could be destroyed or damaged by 50's is the bridge that if shot out could damage speed and turning ability. Gun stations could be whiting of action like AAA. And power magazines could also pack a punch if a there was a bomb hole above the power magazine.

P.S. Rudder and power could be knocked out with a torp in the right spot.

Now  you are not talking about .50s any more... you are tgalking about a complete revision of the ships, jiunks, cargo, tanker BB DD DE CV CVE CA etc etc etc
Ship damage and AI behaviour system.

Possibly also ships zigzagging irregularly along a main course to make aiming torpedoes difficult, and turning in circles erraticaly because there were some  .50 rounds that killed the steering dude.
Crashing into other ships.
Or other ships avoiding the erratically circling damaged ships.

ripping open Jap carrier decks with massive strafing passes, disabling them for takeoff and landing

and... and... and...

Jeeeeeeesus....
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Pursuivant

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Re: 50 Cal. Gun Strenght
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2011, 10:52:14 PM »

Not to be a jerk, folks, but when someone with actual combat experience using a 0.50 MG, like CWMV, speaks, unless you have equivalent professional experience with the same or similar weapon, you sit down, shut up and take very detailed notes.

If I'm correct, the XM218/GAU-15/A used by U.S. and allied forces is just a variant of the infamous "Ma Deuce" which U.S. forces have used since 1918. While modern versions are lighter and have better sights, and versions mounted on ground vehicles have a lower cyclic rate of fire than aircraft mounted versions (during WW2, the AN/M2), it's basically the same gun.

Given that there's a serious lack of U.S. WW2 era pilots on this forum, I'll take CWMV's word as close to gospel regarding the behavior of the 0.50 MG, with the understanding that WW2-era M2 0.50 caliber Browning MGs were somewhat heavier and had probably had a higher rate of fire than the versions he was using.

In any case, if you've played IL2 long enough and have read the intelligent posts about the effectiveness of 0.50 caliber guns on other forums, you'll know that the 0.50 is great for exactly the purposes the CWMV describes - taking out lightly armored targets. Given that U.S.A.A.F. fighters and ground attack planes mostly hunted fighters and unarmored ground targets during WW2, the AN/M2 was the perfect solution for their needs. It was fast-firing, reasonably reliable, had a fair bit of ammo, a high muzzle velocity and packed a decent punch.

By contrast, the Soviets and Germans didn't like the 12.7 mm/0.50 caliber MG so much because their targets tended to be bombers or armored aircraft (in the case of later war German fighters) and heavier ground armor (in the case of the Soviets). Part of the reason that the Soviets didn't particularly like the the P47 and P40 was precisely because those planes lacked cannons. Likewise, the reason that they loved the P39 Airacobra, and its successor the P63, is because those planes were equipped with 20 or 37mm cannons.

So, in the game you use the 0.50 as it was intended to be used. You only shoot wing-mounted 0.50 caliber guns when you're at the correct convergence for your guns, only when you've got sufficiently low deflection that most of your rounds will be on target, and only when you've got a shot which allows your to concentrate your fire on a vital  target. If you can do that, and your gunnery's good, then you can rack up an impressive score of fighters or other relatively light aircraft without using unlimited ammo. If you're hunting bombers or heavy ground targets, you use a plane equipped with cannons or load your plane with rockets or bombs. (That said, to be fair, IL2 doesn't allow you to set the convergent of each pair of guns in your wings. Many WW2 U.S. pilots set the convergence of each pair of guns to be slightly different so that their chance of hitting something was higher. A better tactic, though, is to just set your guns for a single convergence point and learn effective deflection shooting. Unlike real WW2 pilots, you can spend endless hours just practicing gunnery. . .)

As for bigger prey . . .

A shredded bridge wont change its speed or course or general behaviour.
Quote

A shredded bridge sure as heck will alter behavior if you kill the bridge crew and turn the wheel, binnacle and communicators into scrap. A dead man at the helm might not make the ship alter speed, but the ship could easily fall off its course if there's nobody at the wheel. Also, nobody on the bridge means lack of coordination with other ships, more poorly coordinated damage control and lack of coherent command over the ship's movement and tactical behavior. That's the reason that warships have secondary bridges.

But, as HundertzehnGustav points out, as it's a weak point of the IL2 game engine that ship damage and behavior isn't well modeled. There are mods which make it possible to damage certain ship subassemblies, like AA guns, with 0.50 MG fire, but it isn't possible to model different armor/hull thicknesses on different parts of the ship. Nor is it possible to model "critical hits" like wiping out the bridge/bridge crew, uncontrolled fires, flooding, exploding magazines or destruction or failure of vital systems such as communications, steering, electrical power, aircraft catapults, etc.

Likewise, it's a known fact that it's impossible for ships in IL2 to have AI in the same way that aircraft do. That means that ships in IL2 can't use "intelligent" behavior like zig-zagging when threatened by torpedoes, circling to avoid bombs dropped by heavy bombers, and collision avoidance. Perhaps it's possible to give ships such capabilities, but it would be a huge coding effort.

If we're very lucky, perhaps we'll attract the attention of a programmer with way too much time on his hands and an obsessive desire to upgrade a relatively minor aspect of a 10 year old sim.
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CWMV

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Re: 50 Cal. Gun Strenght
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2011, 11:12:32 PM »

Thank you Pursuivant, I appreciate it, but in the end I am not more than another member here, merely trying to interject my experiences. In the end I deserve no special consideration and if people chose to disregard my points that is their prerogative. In truth shouldn't we all be skeptical of what we read on the internet?
Although if you like I can post up a sterilized copy of some deployment orders/awards if it comes down to it  :D

We typically used the standard M2. I remember the one I had in my first tour was last re-arsenaled in 1952. That old girl had some miles on her. Bent/banged up sights that were practically worthless, and she wasn't pretty, but boy she was a lot of fun to shoot and she always went bang when you pushed the trigger!
Our .50's fired around 450-500 rpm. You can make it fire faster, but you risk a catastrophic weapon malfunction.

Not to be a jerk, folks, but when someone with actual combat experience using a 0.50 MG, like CWMV, speaks, unless you have equivalent professional experience with the same or similar weapon, you sit down, shut up and take very detailed notes.

If I'm correct, the XM218/GAU-15/A used by U.S. and allied forces is just a variant of the infamous "Ma Deuce" which U.S. forces have used since 1918. While modern versions are lighter and have better sights, and versions mounted on ground vehicles have a lower cyclic rate of fire than aircraft mounted versions (during WW2, the AN/M2), it's basically the same gun.

Given that there's a serious lack of U.S. WW2 era pilots on this forum, I'll take CWMV's word as close to gospel regarding the behavior of the 0.50 MG, with the understanding that WW2-era M2 0.50 caliber Browning MGs were somewhat heavier and had probably had a higher rate of fire than the versions he was using.

In any case, if you've played IL2 long enough and have read the intelligent posts about the effectiveness of 0.50 caliber guns on other forums, you'll know that the 0.50 is great for exactly the purposes the CWMV describes - taking out lightly armored targets. Given that U.S.A.A.F. fighters and ground attack planes mostly hunted fighters and unarmored ground targets during WW2, the AN/M2 was the perfect solution for their needs. It was fast-firing, reasonably reliable, had a fair bit of ammo, a high muzzle velocity and packed a decent punch.

By contrast, the Soviets and Germans didn't like the 12.7 mm/0.50 caliber MG so much because their targets tended to be bombers or armored aircraft (in the case of later war German fighters) and heavier ground armor (in the case of the Soviets). Part of the reason that the Soviets didn't particularly like the the P47 and P40 was precisely because those planes lacked cannons. Likewise, the reason that they loved the P39 Airacobra, and its successor the P63, is because those planes were equipped with 20 or 37mm cannons.

So, in the game you use the 0.50 as it was intended to be used. You only shoot wing-mounted 0.50 caliber guns when you're at the correct convergence for your guns, only when you've got sufficiently low deflection that most of your rounds will be on target, and only when you've got a shot which allows your to concentrate your fire on a vital  target. If you can do that, and your gunnery's good, then you can rack up an impressive score of fighters or other relatively light aircraft without using unlimited ammo. If you're hunting bombers or heavy ground targets, you use a plane equipped with cannons or load your plane with rockets or bombs. (That said, to be fair, IL2 doesn't allow you to set the convergent of each pair of guns in your wings. Many WW2 U.S. pilots set the convergence of each pair of guns to be slightly different so that their chance of hitting something was higher. A better tactic, though, is to just set your guns for a single convergence point and learn effective deflection shooting. Unlike real WW2 pilots, you can spend endless hours just practicing gunnery. . .)

As for bigger prey . . .

A shredded bridge wont change its speed or course or general behaviour.
Quote

A shredded bridge sure as heck will alter behavior if you kill the bridge crew and turn the wheel, binnacle and communicators into scrap. A dead man at the helm might not make the ship alter speed, but the ship could easily fall off its course if there's nobody at the wheel. Also, nobody on the bridge means lack of coordination with other ships, more poorly coordinated damage control and lack of coherent command over the ship's movement and tactical behavior. That's the reason that warships have secondary bridges.

But, as HundertzehnGustav points out, as it's a weak point of the IL2 game engine that ship damage and behavior isn't well modeled. There are mods which make it possible to damage certain ship subassemblies, like AA guns, with 0.50 MG fire, but it isn't possible to model different armor/hull thicknesses on different parts of the ship. Nor is it possible to model "critical hits" like wiping out the bridge/bridge crew, uncontrolled fires, flooding, exploding magazines or destruction or failure of vital systems such as communications, steering, electrical power, aircraft catapults, etc.

Likewise, it's a known fact that it's impossible for ships in IL2 to have AI in the same way that aircraft do. That means that ships in IL2 can't use "intelligent" behavior like zig-zagging when threatened by torpedoes, circling to avoid bombs dropped by heavy bombers, and collision avoidance. Perhaps it's possible to give ships such capabilities, but it would be a huge coding effort.

If we're very lucky, perhaps we'll attract the attention of a programmer with way too much time on his hands and an obsessive desire to upgrade a relatively minor aspect of a 10 year old sim.
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Slikk

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Re: 50 Cal. Gun Strenght
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2011, 03:37:17 PM »

CWMV has made a lot of valid points about the damage that 50 cal rounds can do and I don’t think that’s being disputed here, but like RGA said…

The explosion could be anything: fuel, oil barrel, depth charges on board..., or even the round impact itself mistakenly recognized as fire and explosion. Ship DM in game isn't much different from what we have 10 years ago, so I don't expect secondary explosion is modelled.

That being said, how could all of that be simulated in game? It still comes back to the ship damage model.

@ Pursuivant,
but it isn't possible to model different armor/hull thicknesses on different parts of the ship.


Although what you’ve said for the most part is spot on, like it not being possible to model "critical hits" like wiping out the bridge/bridge crew, or destruction or failure of vital systems such as communications, steering, electrical power, aircraft catapults, etc. without coding, it IS possible to model different armor/hull thicknesses on different parts of the ship without java coding.

From the start I have been talking about 50 cal.'s attacking ships lol.

I know that Wildchild started this thread talking about 50 cal rounds attacking ships, but this whole thing should be approached in a different way IMHO. I don’t want to derail the thread, but if I’m not reading Wildchild’s request wrong, it seems to me that he would be happy if damage could be done to ships using guns only, regardless if it’s 50 cals or 20mm cannons or what have you. As it is now you can’t do much damage to ships with guns at all, even with cannon rounds. With that said, I am 100% positive a mod like this is possible because I already made a mod that will allow this to be done and it’s more dependent on the ships damage model rather than the gun strength. Try this. Copy the text below into your ship.ini file and over write the existing text. Then make a mission using cargo ships, then attack with guns only.  Short of being able to simulate fuel, oil barrel, depth charges and such being hit, I have tried to make this as random as I could so that it’s hard to know just when the ship will die. This is part of a bigger mod so you won’t get the full effect, but at least you will be able to kill ships with guns now. It’s very hard to do but it can be done. This will not work on destroyers and such, but it will work on transport ships. In addition it was not possible to kill light cruisers with AP Rockets, but with this mod you and your wingies can kill ‘em with AP Rockets. Give this a try then let me know what you think.

Copy the text below into your ship.ini

// Gun Durability

[strength_GunTiny]
MinShotCaliber    0.00762
NumShots          1 //30
MinHitExplTNT     1 //2
NumHitExpl        2 //4
MinNearExplTNT    4
NumNearExpl       2 //7

[strength_GunSmall]
MinShotCaliber    0.0127
NumShots          1 //40
MinHitExplTNT     4
NumHitExpl        2 //4
MinNearExplTNT    8
NumNearExpl       2 //7

[strength_GunMedium]
MinShotCaliber    0.02
NumShots 20 //50
MinHitExplTNT 3 //6
NumHitExpl 3 //6
MinNearExplTNT 5 //12
NumNearExpl 4 //10.5

[strength_GunLarge]
MinShotCaliber    0.037
NumShots          82
MinHitExplTNT     8
NumHitExpl        8
MinNearExplTNT 25 //32
NumNearExpl 11 //14

Here is a pic of the ship explosion effect from Battle Sights v4.0



Remember to backup your ship.ini file.

Slikk
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HundertzehnGustav

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Re: 50 Cal. Gun Strenght
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2011, 03:55:32 PM »

scratches head.
interesting.
like, JUST what could possibly be needed.
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Slikk

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Re: 50 Cal. Gun Strenght
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2011, 04:01:18 PM »

For the explosion effect, you will have to DL Battle Sights v4.0 when it's released. It's not out yet. But to kill ships with guns, just copy the text into your Ship.ini and you will be able to kill ships with guns. It can be hard to do depending on the plane you're in but it can be done and it will take multiple passes, or more than one plane to do.
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CWMV

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Re: 50 Cal. Gun Strenght
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2011, 04:17:49 PM »

You can kill ships with guns. I know I have. Small, unarmored vessels are an easy mark with something like the 12 gun hurricane.
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Slikk

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Re: 50 Cal. Gun Strenght
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2011, 04:35:59 PM »

Yeah that’s what this is aimed at, not heavily armored ships. This is still WIP so any input is welcome.
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Pursuivant

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Re: 50 Cal. Gun Strenght
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2011, 04:43:32 PM »

Thank you Pursuivant, I appreciate it, but in the end I am not more than another member here, merely trying to interject my experiences. In the end I deserve no special consideration and if people chose to disregard my points that is their prerogative. In truth shouldn't we all be skeptical of what we read on the internet?

You're right, of course. Sorry to put you on the spot. I just get a bit testy about certain perennial topics on IL2 forums, and "the 0.50 caliber model is nerfed/uber" debate is one of them. IL2 has a number of problems, but I think that the gunnery and ordinance models are pretty good, at least as of the 4.10 patch.

Also, no disrespect meant to Wildchild. His gripe that you should be able to do some damage to ships with MG and cannons is completely valid. I'd love to a complete revamp of how ships are handled in IL2 and I hope that there's a talented modder who wants to take the job on. I imagine it would be a huge amount of work, though, and perhaps not even possible.

In the meantime, Slikk's ship damage mod is about as good as we're going to get. I'd sort of forgotten about it since I never had the time to work out my own personal ship damage models, and I'd assumed that at least some of his work was included into the big mod packs. If not, it should be.
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