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[George Formby of the AVG]

So, from what I have gathered so far from the Veterans here, a few have fought on the other side of the box, as to say were with a Warsaw Pact aligned military, which I find totally interesting, when I first came in, I was assigned to Hoenfels Germany, a NATO training center, I was assigned to an OPFOR unit and they had us training under Warsaw doctrine to be a more realistic "enemy" for the Blue force, but knowing, after all these year of working with the US Government, how they tend to get their intel wrong, I would love to sit and talk if I could to one of you who have actually served under Warsaw doctrine. The one thing that sticks out in my mind about some of our training is that the "book" told us as opposed to massing Infantry behind Armored columns before a push to the LOA, Warsaw doctrine taught to mass Infantry In FRONT of Armored columns, how true is that???

[StG77_HaDeS]

This is not true - there never was a claim that "Macedonians" are anything else but Slavs.

Really? But Macedonians were and still are ALWAYS Hellenes! Why calling the Slavs Macedonians? You are Serb, you are a Slav and i am an Hellene and i can say also i am an Athenian with Spartan Anchestry. But a Slav cannot say i am a "Macedonian", for the same reason i cannot say "I am a Slav".

The Alexander the Great connection surfaced only after they gained independence from Yugoslavia in the 1990's, during Tito's time such claims were suppressed.

Not true. Actually Tito created this:

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http://www.cc.ece.ntua.gr/~conster/English/PageData/mac_tito.htm

And his Methods for the "Macedonian" Language. Nothing new here, really ;)

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http://www.cc.ece.ntua.gr/~conster/English/PageData/stalin_lang.htm

The "Macedonians" mostly don't give a $hit about any territory outside FYROM borders - except a handful of ultranationalist fanatics - they use the name "Macedonia" because they have no other.

Really? Then why using the SAME name that describes a HELLENIC Province for 3.000+ Years? Having common borders with it?
This is a nice article, its long but its worth it. And you will find out Why we object this name.

What is in a Name - A Rose by Any Other Name, Is It Still A Rose?

Is a rose by any other name still a rose? What if we started calling the "rose" an "onion"? If you had both next to each other, could you point to each and call each an onion? Would one be a real onion and the other a fake onion? Would both smell the same, look the same, have the same texture, color, and all other qualities?

If you asked someone for an onion what would he give you? Would your sweetheart appreciate the dozen onions that you sent her for Valentine's Day?

Now, what happens if one area of our world started calling itself with the same name as a neighboring area? What if this area also took the identity and history of its neighbors? What if this first area becomes a country? Can it now decide to call itself with the same name as its neighbor and the rest of the world recognizes it so?

The Massachusetts Bay Colony consisted of the area of the northern New England states and also encompassed part of what today is the Canadian province of Quebec. Throughout the years, many Quebec inhabitants have migrated from Quebec to the New England states. If Quebec broke away from Canada and became an independent country, would it be suitable to change its name to "New England"? Would it bother anyone if this "New England" hoisted a new flag with New Hampshire's Old Man of the Mountain in the middle of it, printed new currency picturing Bunker Hill on it, redrew their maps such that their territory is shown going all the way down to Boston and beyond, and revised their history books to indicate the colonial New England history as their own. Maybe we can call this new country "New New England" and we can rename the Northeastern part of the United States "Old New England". Will that make it clear to everybody?

We read the above hypothetical situation and think that it is so ridiculous that it could never happen. But, that is exactly what is happening today right before our eyes between The FYROM, former Yugoslavia's southern republic, and Macedonia, one of Hellas' northern provinces.

Before 1944 the area that later comprised of the former Yugoslavia's southern republic was not called Macedonia but was called Vardarska Banovina (Province -of the river- Vardar). It was in 1944 that (Joseph Broz) Marshal Tito, the Communist dictator ruling Yugoslavia at that time, created Yugoslavia's southern republic and called it "Socialist Republic of Macedonia". However, 'Macedonia' was already the name of one of Hellas' northern provinces.

In ancient times, the land that Macedonia covered included this northern province of Hellas, a small part of Bulgaria, a small part of Albania, and a small part of the region that Tito named the Socialist Republic of Macedonia. It is pertinent to note that Tito's Socialist Republic of Macedonia consisted of not only a small part of ancient Makedonia but also a far larger part from Slavic Yugoslavia. There is no doubt that creating this Republic in the southern region in Yugoslavia and including "Macedonia" in its name was deliberate with the main intention of laying claim to the region of ancient Macedonia of the northern province of Hellas. Particularly, what Tito and his Communist allies wanted was the city of Thessaloniki with its lucrative warm water port.

After 1944 a deliberate and systematic campaign was initiated for Yugoslavia's southern republic to take over the history of ancient Macedonia. "Scholars" from the "People's Republic of Macedonia" were commissioned to re-write their history books to include the ancient Macedonian History according to the wishes of the League of Communists of communist Yugoslavia, accompanied by perverted maps showing their "Macedonia" going all the way down to the northern half of Mount Olympus.

Also, "linguists" led by Blagoj Konev, a.k.a. Blage Koneski, were appointed to create the alphabet for and refine the "newly discovered" Macedonian language, which, of course, was made to sound as if it were the "natural development" of the ancient Macedonian language. Through their control of mass media and education, the government of "People's Republic of Macedonia" then introduced this language and claimed that it is the language that was spoken by the ancient Macedonians.

However, this language is grammatically nearly identical to Bulgarian and, due to continuous government interventions, its vocabulary tends to include more Serbo-Croatian words that have replaced the Bulgarian words. They clearly overlooked the unquestionable fact that the inhabitants of ancient Macedonia were Hellenes and spoke the Hellenic language. Numerous excavations in all of the ancient Makedonia area have consistently unearthed relics clearly with Hellenic writings, and depictions of rulers clearly designated with Hellenic names.

In September of 1991 this republic declared independence from Yugoslavia and it named itself  "Republic of Macedonia" as a new independent country. They designed a new flag with the Sun of Vergina at its center and printed new currency with the White Tower of Thessaloniki, symbols clearly from the northern province of Hellas. Because of these actions and also because of certain articles in their constitution which implied that the their country had territorial rights to all of the ancient Makedonian area, Hellas imposed a trade embargo and prevented any trade commerce through Hellas' northern border.

Hellas reluctantly lifted the trade embargo when The FYROM redesigned and accepted a new flag, stopped the issuance of the new currency with the depiction of the White Tower of Thessaloniki, and passed amended articles to their constitution implying that they have no territorial rights outside their present boundaries.

Hellas, however, continued to object to their use of the name Macedonia. Because of this objection, the United Nations accepted this nation as a new member with the temporary name of "The Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia (The FYROM)" (UN Resolutions 817 of April 7 and 845 of June 18 of 1993) until a permanent solution to the name is found.

To this date no solution has been found and the UN deadline of September 13, 2002 has passed by with the two countries only agreeing to extend discussions on this matter.

The deliberate and systematic campaign of distortion, stealing and absorption of the history and ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians is ongoing today with full and untiring strength. Although officially this country is known as The FYROM, through a vigorous campaign they have managed to contrive the world to call it Macedonia in common day usage. The Internet and mass-communication has made it easy for them to do this and they have used these tools to create a flood of misinformation. One such example that clearly shows their devious actions is the Web site: faq.macedonia.org/

Hitler is credited with saying "Tell a big enough lie, tell it often enough, and it becomes the truth". In some way this provides an explanation as to why the inhabitants of The FYROM are so adamant about keeping the name Macedonia.

Now, sixty-five years after the start of the campaign of distortion, stealing and absorption of the HELLENIC history and ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians, we find that the inhabitants of The FYROM are mostly the children of 1944 and those that were born afterwards and who grew up with these untruths. To them these have become facts. But, must this go on any longer? Isn't it time to set the record straight?

What's in a Name? - In a name you have identity, history, ancestry, culture, ethnicity, belonging, cohesiveness, texture, color, and many other qualities.

And, it is in the Macedonian names, which those in The FYROM now want to claim as their own, where one of the greatest proofs of the Hellenicity of Macedonia lies. Here are some of countless examples:

Makedon = hellenic for "the tall one"

Amyntas (father of Philip) = hellenic for "defender"

Philippos (Philip) = hellenic for "one who is friend of/loves the horse"

Alexandros (Alexander) = hellenic for "the protector of man"

Bucephalus (Alexander's beloved horse with a large head)= hellenic for "ox-like head "

Aristotelis (Aristotle - Alexander's teacher) = hellenic for "the best and perfect one"

Thessaloniki = hellenic for the victory over the Thessalians

Countless historians and other scholars have written extensively about the Hellenicity of Macedonia. Henry Morgenthau served in Constantinople as US Ambassador (1913-16), served as Vice President of the Relief Committee for the Middle East (1919-21). He was appointed by the League of Nations and served as President of the Hellenic Refugee Settlement Committee (1923-28) and is known as a most reliable source of historical facts. In 1929 (please note that this was 15 years before the start of the campaign of distortion, stealing and absorption of the Hellenic history and ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians by Tito's propagandists) Henry Morgenthau published his book "I was sent to Athens", in which he writes:

"Soon after Athens had reached the height of its glory under Pericles in the Fifth Century, B. C., and had started on its decline, the rise of Makedon under Philip carried Hellenic influence into new regions. The glory of Athens had been based upon sea power, but the conquests of Makedon were the work of land armies— Philip invented the invincible phalanx. Upon Philip's death his son, Alexander the Great, set forth to conquer the whole of the then known world, and as that world in his day lay to the east, his marches were in that direction. In a few years he had overrun the fertile plains and opulent cities of Asia Minor, Syria, Mesopotamia, and Persia, and had carried his conquests to the gates of Delhi. In all the cities in the intervening countries he left large garrisons of Hellene soldiers. In many of these countries he founded flourishing new cities. In every place his soldiers were followed by large colonies of Hellene civilians. The result was that the whole of western Asia, and of what we call the Near East, including Asia Minor Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Babylonia, Mesopotamia, Persia, and northwestern India, was saturated with the Hellenic influence and with Hellenic colonies."

"The imagination of these conquered peoples was dazzled by the introduction of Hellenic art, literature, philosophy, and public works. Though the successors of Alexander were unable to maintain the political control of the lands he conquered, and though successive waves of Roman, Arabian, and Tartar conquests swept over these lands in succeeding centuries, none of the later conquerors has been able wholly to eradicate the influence of Hellenic culture, nor to exterminate that element of population which was of Hellenic blood."

"….The Hellenic War of Independence, which came to a successful conclusion in 1832, affected less than one half of the Hellenes in the Turkish Empire. It did not bring freedom to the Hellenes of Makedonia and Thrace, of Crete and the Aegean Islands, nor to the more than two million Hellenes in Asia Minor and Constantinople."

If the entire region of The FYROM were from ancient Macedonia they would have some legitimate claim for The FYROM to be called Macedonia. But it is not. Over 90% of the ancient Macedonian area is outside of The FYROM's borders and less than 1/5 of its own land within its borders is from the ancient Makedonian area. The FYROM is clearly mostly a Slavic region.

If a vast majority of the inhabitants in The FYROM were Hellenes, they would have some legitimate claim to have this country named Macedonia. But they are not. The Hellene inhabitants in The FYROM are a small minority.

So where does their claim for The FYROM to be called Macedonia in any form comes from? There is no valid reason, which is based on truth for this country to have any form of a name that contains "Macedonia" in it.

Internal strife between the various minorities within The FYROM, has placed the country on the verge of collapse. Albania (since about 1/4 of The FYROM territory is ethnically Albanian) and Bulgaria are anxiously waiting on the sidelines for this to happen to quickly rush in and grab a piece of it. On the other hand, Hellas maintains a position of a staunch supporter for the survival of this country. Isn't it ironic that The FYROM continues to slap Hellas, its one and only friend of the region, in the face with the "Makedonian Name Issue"?

I would think, though, that changing their name back to "VARDARSKA" such as "VARDARSKA REPUBLIKA " or "REPUBLIKA VARDAR" would serve as a unifying force for the various factions within its borders, would eliminate the name controversy with its neighbors, and would put them on the road to their proper identity, ethnicity, heritage and most of all dignity.

This, of course, is completely true. The "Alexander the Macedonian was not a Greek" myth has gathered strength among the "Macedonians" since their independence, but there's no historical evidence whatsoever in favor of this connection and there's plenty against it.

Of course. Alexander's name means the "protector of men" in Hellenic, and he spoke Hellenic, he worsshiped the Hellenic Gods, his teacher was Aristotle the biggest Hellenic mind of the Antiquity perhaps, and the Macedonians were Allowed to participate in the Olympic Games where ONLY Hellenes were allowed to Participate and NOT Barbarians like Persians, Skyths, etc...

The "Macedonians" arrived to the Balkans together with the other Southern Slav tribes who later became Serbs, Croats, Slovenes and others sometines in the 6th Century, and in fact were the first of the Slavic peoples in the region to have a ordered State, adopt Christianity and leave written documents. This state was however very short-lived and quckly swallowed first by Bulgarian and later Serbian Empires until the arrival of the Ottoman Turks in the 14th Century.

Yes the Slavs who now posses the 10% of the Ancient Macedonian region are Bulgarians and Serbs. It is true.

By the way it is not only Greeks who have issue with FYROM and the people inhabiting it - extremist Albanians wish to separate the western 1/3 of the country and unite it with Kosovo into "State of Illyrida", extremist Bulgarians claim "Macedonian" people do not exist and are in fact Bulgarians despite the two speaking similar but distinctly different languages; extremist Serbians claim "Macedonia" is together with Kosovo actually Ancient Serbia and "Macedonians" are actually "Southern Serbs"...

It is also true

So the Greek complaint against the use of the name "Macedonia" is, compared to these others, quite a minor one. 

I disagree. The name is of great importance because of the things that are described in the article i posted above.

Personnaly, i believe a compromise solution along the lines of "Republic of Slavomacedonia" and "Slavomacedonians" would work quite well, but neither the Greeks nor the "Macedonians" wish to back off on this issue even an inch.

I think that the Hellenes could possibly agree with the differentiation of "Slavomacedonians" so they will have NO Connection Whatsoever with the Hellenes Macedonians and the Hellenic land of Macedonia in Hellas.
I think that the Skopians reject their ethnic definition of "Slavs".

Regards,

Panos

P.S.
And this is the proof that BEFORE Communist Tito's games the name of the Slavic "Macedonia" region was...
VARDARSKA!







EDIT:

And this is the main aim behind the Macedonian name. The Sloviskpians are dreaming to gain accesss to the Aegean sea through the Port of thessalonika. In this picture with Red color in the left corner is the Hellenic Macedonia, and the Skopje is above it.
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http://media.photobucket.com/image/map%20thessaloniki/macedoniahi5/macedonia.jpg

[StG77_HaDeS]

And here is what No-One from Skopje, no-one of the Pseudo-Macedonians can read the following:











The above few samples taken from here:
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http://www.cc.ece.ntua.gr/~conster/English/PageData/list_of_inscriptions.htm

But i can, despite the Thousands of years. Why? Because i am an Hellene from Athens and the Macedonians language was Hellenic and they Wrote Hellenic ;)

[JackS]

99 Bomb Wing, 346 Bomb Squadron 1964-1968, B-52 Aircraft Commander, 113 missions in Viet Nam 1967-68.
Some I remember vividly! Boredom permeated by moments of stark terror. ALL missions in Jan-Feb 1968 in support of US Marines at Ke San during Tiet.

Through 'God was my co-pilot' landed damaged 52D soon after takeoff back at Guam; Jettionsoned 105 500# bombs at one time to lighten for landing - airplane jumped up 100 feet! Aircraft flow back to Boeing for repair, flew more missions, now on display at IMW, Duxford, England. IWM offerd to put me on display, I deferred for now. 

Crew pcture on facebook under Jack Sciutti.

Many thanks Piet!!!

Jack Sciutti


former BUFF driver

[Rudi_Jaeger]

What an interesting thread! It's great to see so much diversity and fascinating stories. I even see a few names I'm familiar with, so it appears we share even more than just an interest in aviation.

I'm an Army Vet, 21 years shooting mortars with about 20 of them actually hitting the target 

First combat was as a PFC with Aco 1-508 PIR, 82nd Airborne, during Operation Urgent Fury in Grenada, Oct 27, 1983. It was our first major offensive action since Vietnam. In fact, many of our senior NCO's and Officers were Vietnam Veterans, so it was an honor to have 'the torch' passed directly from their hands. And speaking of history, General James Gavin, the 82nd's commander in WWII, was the guest speaker at our Division Review that year.

Later I went to 1-67 Armor, 2nd Armor Division, at Ft Hood TX, and did REFORGER '85 & '87. Talk about a square peg in a round hole.. Mortarmen are probably the only Infantrymen you'll ever see assigned to a armor unit, since they still need us to shoot smoke screens and take out observer and AT positions, etc. Was fun to see the big M-1's in action though.. plus it was nice knowing there were a few Abrams on point. I totally fell in love with Europe during the REFORGER tours. Got to visit the memorial at Bastogne, which was quite a moving experience.

Spent '88 -'89 with Aco 2-503rd Infantry (Light), 2nd ID, at Camp Hovey, ROK, including a DMZ tour, and a train ride to Seoul for the Olympics. Many places still exhibited the scars of the war.. crater-etched trench and bunker complexes, range fans still painted on the parrapets of MG positions, schrapnel lodged in tree trunks, etc. Probably got into the best physical condition of my life there, thanks to all the cross-country marches over the steep terrain; came home feeling like Superman. My Dad spent the entire war in Korea, until being wounded for the last time at Porkchop Hill during a bayonet assault. He was a combat medic with the 32nd Infantry Regiment, 7th Infantry Division, and was awarded three Purple Hearts and the Bronze Star with 'V' device.

Next came Ft Stewart, GA, assigned to 3-7 Infantry (Mech), 24th ID. Served in Desert Shield/Storm under the excellent leadership of General Barry McCaffery, who led us deep into Iraq and got us home again (well, most of us).

Then went to Vilseck, GER, on the south side of Graffenwoehr, assigned to 3rd Infantry Divison and was later reflagged to 1st Infantry Division. Took charge of my first platoon there; what a great bunch of soldiers, I'm still proud of 'em. Visited Berchtesgaden and the Eagle's Nest, Cologne Cathedral (my wife's hometown), Paris, Venice, Salzburg, Pilsen, and several historical sites that I would likely never had seen if not for military service.

Seven years and nine Hohenfels rotations later, I ended up in Ft Carson, CO, with 1-12 Infantry, 4th ID, and made a few trips to Kuwait.

Called it a day in 2004 and retired, although I'm still fortunate to work closely with our active duty soldiers on a daily basis.

Seen a fair share of horrible stuff, a few incidents of downright spooky stuff, and wore out a few parts; but I'd have to say most of my experiences were times I wouldn't trade for all the riches in the world. I had the privilage to serve alongside some truly outstanding soldiers and meet some of the finest folks you'd ever want to know, and not only from the US Army.. and that's why I'm really enjoying this thread; it's great to hear from members of the same fraternity, no matter what side of the fence we were on.

Here's to ya Mates; Salute!

[George Formby of the AVG]

Later I went to 1-67 Armor, 2nd Armor Division, at Ft Hood TX, and did REFORGER '85 & '87. Talk about a square peg in a round hole.. Mortarmen are probably the only Infantrymen you'll ever see assigned to a armor unit,

Funny you should mention that, today they have what is known as a BCT (Brigade Combat Team) they actually assign Infantry Company's to Armored Company's now. Your path sounds a lot like mine, except you had the privledge to actually deploy with Vet's from Vietnam, man the learning curve there was huge I bet?? My only big regret was my break in service, in the  4 years I was out, the Army did a whole re-invention, I left it with M-16's came back and they had M-4's, 2001 I came back in in May, a freshly re-married 32 year old PFC, yep they took some rank for my LOS, I said that my luck they would go to war the minute I went back in, only missed that by 4 months, I was assigned to A Co. 3-502nd INF, 101st Airborne Division, we waited patiently for deployment orders, but at the time of Enduring Freedom, our CG sent the Division Pretty boys, 187 INF (Rakkasans) to Afghanistan, leaving us to endless gate guard and cheesy deployments stateside, on February, 2003, we were finally in Kuwait, stepped out in the initial Invasion, where we fought our way quite literally to Baghdad, along the way I was put on LP/OP with my team leader, one night the Fedeyeen tried to break a battalion side element into our company's perimiter, and me an ole SGT Ransom held em of for 30 minutes while the company regrouped and set in for a fire fight, the next day, upon inspecting one of the goobs I shot, I found a Fedeyeen Deathhead Card on his person, which I still have to this day, for that action I received a Bronze Star with a V for Valor, at the time the only SPC to receive one, after that the promotions started rolling for me, and I finally got caught back up to the rank/age ratio. I enjoyed my time in, and now that I am out and retired (we'll save that deployment for another time) I do miss it, there was no shades of gray with that kinda life, and I am still struggling to be a civilian once again. I just want to stop and take the opportunity to thank each and ever Vet here for standing up for what you believe in, and actually making a difference for you country, instead of sitting back and watching war movies with Bruce Willis, you guys actually answered your nations call, and for that, I believe it makes you men 10 times over . To the Vets---SALUTE!!!

[beercamel]

USAF..

1980 to 1997..

Flew F-4D's, F-4E's, F-16A/B's, F-16 C/D's, and KC-135R's..  Currently an airline Captain..

[chair1]

USN   1964-1968
2 1/2 years sea duty in the Gulf Of Tunkin
Electronics Tech    one of those  years was  on  a ship with a crazy captain . He was finally relieved of his command for cruelty to the crew.   Thats why I got out as  soon as I could. Now I wish I would have stayed in.

[vampire_pilot]

German Heer, 2. / Inst.210, Transport Maintenance, tour of duty to Former Yugoslavia in 1996 (IFOR), lots of repair stuff in the field and convoy duty to supply the engineers.
I don't want to miss this time although it sure was not all funny.

I also had the honor to extensively visit Verdun representing the German armed forces on a  visit to a felow french unit. One of the moments I will remember allways, overlooking these hills together with french comrades.

[macdkinfe]

US Army 1980-1986 3years in 41ord.in germany 1year in the 1st cav. fort hood TX.
ammo.stock records  ammo handler
 ground to ground lance missile system

[brewcat]

Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm - 2004-2009 - Aircraft Electrician/Weapons on GR7s and 9s. Went to Kandahar, but not for too long.

[slipper]

British Army - 1983-1988 - Royal Corps Of Signals (Radio Relay Operator) - Catterick Garrison - BAOR Munster W.Germany - Norway - Tour of Northern Ireland with 1st Btn Grenadier Guards 86-87

Left in 88 and joined Fire Brigade, still there.

cheers all

slipper

[FlyingBoxHead]

This is not me but my grandfather.He worked for the Office of Naval Intelligence(ONI) during Vietnam,he basically got to travel around the whole world, Philippines,India,Europe,was stationed in U-Tapao,Thailand airbase(few months),Saigon for a week.Was only in Vietnam for a total of four weeks,he told me he was about to get court Marshalled for ''something bad(I can't tell)'' he did so he was given the option to go to federal prison or on a forward recon mission across the Ho Chi Minh trail with the 4th Marine divsion and also get an honorable discharge.So he went on the mission,they encountered an NVA(VC?)troop column,they killed 11 NVA troops,and none of the Marines in his group got hurt.After Vietnam was over he got transfered to NAS Moffet field in the late 70s,living on base housing and working as a Helicopter mechanic.He also told me he was the first sailor to file for food stamps.He also worked on P-3 Orions at U-Tapao when he was stationed there(Didn't want to backspace everything).

He also said he had a big ''T'' for troublemaker stamped on his papers(resime?).


My other grandfather was a gunner(carried an M-60 he tells me) during 67-69 in Vietnam.He doesn't like to talk much about it but all that I've gotten him to tell me is that he was apart of numerous recon missions along the HoChiMinh trail and past the DMZ,he was also apart of some missions to rescue downed pilots behind enemy lines(DMZ).That's all I've gotten him to tell me,I try not to pressure him when I ask him about it though,so don't think I'm all gettin up in his face and junk like that.