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Author Topic: CUP and 4.13 - is it possible?  (Read 13995 times)

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ls

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CUP and 4.13 - is it possible?
« on: June 05, 2015, 04:16:31 PM »

Is it possible to install CUP on the 4.13+SAS Modact 6.0?

Greetings,
ls
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decipher

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Re: CUP and 4.13 - is it possible?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2015, 05:50:58 PM »

just guessing here:

possible yes - with proper updates, but personally i would not want to be the guy who has to beta-test this now. (and i would suggest not wasting your time trying to install CUP over 4.13 yet...it might end in a mess ) :)
from a quick overview of the 4.13 readme... it fixes a lot of small things in very different parts of il-2, like specific flight models, changes AI behavior, modifies planes, adds new 3d to existing planes, modifies some maps etc...

for CUP this means it could potentially break a random number of Mods or the way they interact... a LOT of testing work will have to go into this, adding up to the testing that already has to be done, to properly have CUP running smoothly on 4.12 as it is now :)

or maybe the release candidates for 3.14 where secretly available to some of the "high profile" modders of SAS?

either way, i personally hope that first we will get waw 9 and probably 10 released and running clean and bug free on 4.12 as it is now.
AFTER that (keeping a clean backup folder to play ;:) i am open to see how 4.13 works out and wait to see if the CUP crew will release a compatibility fix, or how they will work it out

interesting times.
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dietz

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Re: CUP and 4.13 - is it possible?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2015, 05:58:53 PM »

Thanks Decipher...you musta known what I was going to ask.I have more than enough to play with now -I can wait until someone figure out how to do this right or if there is any need to do it at all. ;)
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Ceslaus

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Re: CUP and 4.13 - is it possible?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2015, 12:10:47 AM »

Is - if I have too be honest with you - I think it will be possible in next few months, maybe weeks. Everything depends on Monty and his crew. It might sound strange for you, but in my opinion it would be best if we focus on some missions and campaigns for C.U.P.
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SAS~Storebror

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Re: CUP and 4.13 - is it possible?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2015, 12:38:40 AM »

I don't want to spoil the fun but:
  • Throwing CUP onto an existing 4.13 + Modact 6 game will be unsuccessful.
    If you ever get such game to start at all, it will give you nothing but a mess of mixed game versions.
  • Lifting CUP to 4.13 isn't a "few days" job either.

The reason for this is that from a modders' point of view, the changes applied in 4.13 make it very tough to make existing multi-crew aircraft (bombers!) compatible with the new base game version. There's a whole lot of java code changes for the copilot and new bombsight implementations, neither of them trivial, and all of them have different impact on different planes, so you cannot even say "change this and that, and your plane is compatible again", it's different on each and every plane affected.

And that's just talking about aircraft, not to mention other changes.

Give the CUP team some time to consider the best approach please.

Best regards - Mike
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ls

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Re: CUP and 4.13 - is it possible?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2015, 03:37:57 AM »

Mike & decipher ,
Thank You very much  for Your in-depth explanations,
(You saved me from an unsuccessful experiment and wasting a lot of time)
 :) :) :)
Greetings for all,
ls
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slipper

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Re: CUP and 4.13 - is it possible?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2015, 05:47:59 AM »

For me the base upgrades, 4.09, 4.10 etc, while improving some aspects, have served to fragment the game.

There are countless mods out there that people have spent hours of their personal time on, that now no longer work after each update. This means the mod is either unusable or the modder has to spend further time making it work. I'm sure some people get disheartened by it and give up modding altogether.

4.10 was probably the most popular base game for modding at the height of il2's popularity, and there are still many very important mods from 4.10 that don't work in 4.12, C&C being one that springs to mind

Now we have 4.13, and CUP working on 4.12. What do new mods support now?
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Mono27

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Re: CUP and 4.13 - is it possible?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2015, 06:08:48 AM »

Sorry to repost this again, but I do it because I think that this is the proper topic.

I remember when 4.11 patch was released, short time later all the new planes and cockpits from 4.11 were available to download as an addition to 4.10 and 4.09. Maybe this time it happens again, 4.13 features in 4.12 CUP.
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Chupacabras84

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Re: CUP and 4.13 - is it possible?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2015, 06:13:25 AM »

@Slipper
Kinda agree here, the moment TD took over and went ahead with 4.10 community split.
Some people wanted to play stock mutliplayer, some other wanted to stay with mod packs which worked on 4.09 only.
Since then many internet communities and clans limited their online activities to hamachi rounds avoiding official mp.
Then 4.12 come out and dealt a finishing blow, many clans slowly drift apart and I havent seen many people I used to play with since then.

On the other hand, they did better optimisation (at least I am getting 10ps more), they still working on the game which is great, I love IL2 and want it to stay alive as long as possible and check this freaking vid, they deserve bravo for this.
I think its awesome and I can only hope one day they pull more planes to this standard, although they mentioned workforce shortage so this probably wont happen.

@Mono27
I think its pointless, spending time on porting some features when this time can be spend on making CUP compatible with 4.13, at least if changes are not major like with 4.10 and 4.12.
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SAS~Storebror

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Re: CUP and 4.13 - is it possible?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2015, 06:58:08 AM »

At the risk of entering the global "stock vs. mods" debate, let me express my $0.02 concerning new patches and compatibility of mods.

Let's first separate mods into two categories:

Category 1 touches base game files, be it java classes, 3d meshes, effects, maps, hell even simple properties or ini files.
Those mods cannot and will not ever be cross-compatible among different base game versions, for the simple fact that what those patches modified, most likely is getting modified again by the next patch released.
We cannot blame TD for this.
Many times we cannot blame the modders who made those mods either, because many of the enhanced features shown in recent mods aren't possible without touching base game content.
Sometimes however mods don't seem to care much for compatibility issues and simply change files across the whole game, yes it even seems random from time to time, and that would better be avoided.
As a rule of thumb, whenever you create a new mod, try to make it as less intrusive and as much cross-version compatible as possible, hence try to touch no base game file at all and if that cannot be achieved, try to touch as few of them as possible and last but not least, document the changes applied.

Category 2 already successfully followed the recommendation from the last sentence above and doesn't touch any base game files at all, or just very few unimportant ones that don't change since IL-2 1946 aka 4.07 release.
These mods ship full-featured with no cross-dependencies to other mods or specific file versions.
Basically one would expect such mods to work fine when a new official patch is released, but unfortunately most of the times that's not the case, e.g. easily 3/4 existing working 4.12.2 mods will not work on 4.13.
Why?
Because TD doesn't care for cross-version compatibility either.
That's the single most important point when TD would want to reach out their hand to the modding community: Take care of backward compatibility.
It's okay if you bring new content and features to the game.
Just leave the existing ones in place too so that existing mods continue to work on the new patch level (even if they do so without supporting the new features then, this can be dealt with on later mod updates if desired).
For instance this means that instead of altering the functionality of existing java methods, as soon as compatibility issues arise, implement the new functionality in a new method (which can even have the same name if arguments differ). Too much work changing all the method calls in code? C'mon, contemporary IDEs do this for you with one click, "refactoring" is the key to success.
If this would eventually become common sense, life for both modders and TD developers could be much easier.
Unfortunately up to now TD follows the "our patch, our game, we're the state" and gives a damn for backward compatibility.
The longer it stays like that, the more modders will throw the towel and the faster IL-2 will die, this might sound harsh but it's really as easy as this.
Maybe this will change one day, maybe it won't, time will tell.

Best regards - Mike
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decipher

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Re: CUP and 4.13 - is it possible?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2015, 07:23:40 AM »

If this would eventually become common sense, life for both modders and TD developers could be much easier.
Unfortunately up to now TD follows the "our patch, our game, we're the state" and gives a damn for backward compatibility.
The longer it stays like that, the more modders will throw the towel and the faster IL-2 will die, this might sound harsh but it's really as easy as this.
Maybe this will change one day, maybe it won't, time will tell.

Best regards - Mike

this is really what it boils down to. a really "unified" il-2 1946 base would be the utopia for the whole community and probably expand the lifespan of this flight sim even longer, but meh.

the one great thing about il-2 1946 is, that its not pestered with DRM etc. its just one simple game folder... need a backup? copy the folder! want to keep 2 different versions to play different mods? keep 2 separate folders!
now try that with most modern games... with online activation, DRM, system files, registry entries, obscured folders and files in appdata folders etc...

for now i really hope that monty and the other guys just focus on what we have. CUP as it is now. based on 4.12.2. getting WAW 9 and 10 out. and make it a stable base so more people will start creating NEW campaigns and missions, like ceslaus said.

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kingsley

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Re: CUP and 4.13 - is it possible?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2015, 07:54:20 AM »

Everybody
I have good news and bad news.
Good News
Cup will work to a point with 4.13 and the mod act. that mike put out now after many crash and burns went at it a differant way at a full cup game working. Just dropped in 4.13 checked and worked then dropped in the mod act. checked and worked. Now the fun part over wrote cup from start to finish started a few options thru jsmge forgotten countries work, high def skins work to a point had to change some coding. Do Not Use mission pro combo by benito crash and burn still working on the coding or maybe he will have one up and running in time. Got to go one mod plane at a time to check them out. If just playing stock 4.13 your fine go to the sas modact game so/so playing cup as I say off and on still working out some java and other items.

Bad News
On some maps thru the sas modact and cup strange things crop up going one map at a time Mod planes thru sas/cup bombers position yea right a lot of fun to get working unless thru stock game. The mod ships same as planes one at a time but Kala's new carrier works like a charm.
Had to change a lot of code to get cup to work to the point it does still a lot of work left.
  This is a hobby to me and I enjoy it
Simon
I know you are working on cup to 413 too and if I get it up and running like it should I will send it to you unless you beat me to it.
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