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Author Topic: Question for piston engine experts about removing exhaust silencers :)  (Read 464 times)

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HansHansen

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Hi guys,

i dismounted the exhaust silencer from a Volkswagen T3, so that only the exhaust manifold comes after the exhaust valves of the 4 cylinder flat petrol engine.

like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHwW66aZAes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4_F-w18jVE

the sound is awesome  :D but the question is: does it really increase the power of the engine? i thought so, but in a few forums some guys write the opposite  :o


thanks in advance  ;)

ps: guess who´s the guy in the car  :D
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CWMV

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Re: Question for piston engine experts about removing exhaust silencers :)
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2011, 01:39:05 PM »

Well, there are always those that will tell you that backpressure is critical for performance, but its something that I've never experienced.
All my work has been on SBC's. Working on a large ci NA motor my goal is always to minimize exhaust restrictions. The better the flow the better the performance, but only to a point.
Realistically without supporting mods such as a higher flowing intake manifold/heads the gains you get will be fairly minimal, and in any case a tune will be be necessary to really maximize power gains.
But hey, everyone starts somewhere!
Now your sure your not running catalytic converters? Those will slow your exhaust flow more than a well flowing muffler like a magnaflow.
For that matter if you did throw a nice, high flowing muffler on it would 1) Be legal, 2) have a nice sound, and 3) give gains similar to deleting the muffler.

All in my opinion of course. Look forward to others responses especially those that have more experience with the small motors.
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SAS~Friction

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Re: Question for piston engine experts about removing exhaust silencers :)
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2011, 02:03:54 PM »

I use to be an inspection tech so I can tell you a few things here. I'll use the term "in most states" here alot, cause rules vary state to state, country to country.

For one, technically speaking, any modification to the exhaust system would be illegal in most states. Some inspection techs will look past this as long as there is a catalytic converter. Running a car without a catcon is illegal in most states (if not all now) even on cars older than 1995. 1995 is the cutoff for smog tests in most states. I run my car with no catcon... and it still passes inspection!  ;)

As far as power, it really depends on the motor. Some back pressure from the exhaust is needed to maintain proper combustion in the engine. Less energy is used to fire hot exhaust gases than new cold gases, but new oxygen is required to keep the combustion going. In my experiences, 4 cyl NA (natural/normal aspirated aka non turbo) engines can bog down if they lose too much back pressure. I use to own a Golf GTI, and didn't have problems with it, but it did have a catcon on it to slow exhaust escape. A straight pipe setup (no cat or silencer) is better for a car that is turbo charged (the turbo will take back as much hot gas as it needs before it even leaves the manifold)... or a larger motor (V6 or V8).

In the case of a VW T3, you're taking about a Transport 3?... We call them Buses here... I seriously doubt you're going to get any extra HP out of it by pulling the exhaust... maybe 1/2 hp at best.


I have a 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD, that's been modded. I run a straight pipe on it, and with a boost controller, I can boost it over 400 bhp. I've never had any complaints about it being sluggish, except when the transmission broke.  :D

Regards
Friction
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bren

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Re: Question for piston engine experts about removing exhaust silencers :)
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2011, 03:10:14 PM »

Quote
Videos.
Lol. Now cut down the springs and install oldskool JDM rims.

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HansHansen

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Re: Question for piston engine experts about removing exhaust silencers :)
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2011, 04:23:56 PM »

Hi guys, thanks for your intresting answers  ;)

first of all dont mind the legal affairs, it will only be driven on private property to the place where the glider planes take off, about 500m away. it will serve as mobile control tower for ATC  :)
And this was not intended to bring as much horsepower as possible, just for fun and for ears  :D

@CWMV
about the backpressure: i also read that the lack of backpressure may reduce torque in low rpm´s, and it smells a bit like gas when its running, but im not quite sure if it did that before  :D

and: no catalytic converter, i guess the car was produced without one, anyway there are only pipes after the engine now :)

@Friction as mentioned before, dont mind legal stuff, and im from germany, where all this stuff would be even more strict. And i wouldnt even think about driving without muffler here :D

and yes the official name of the car is VW T3 Transporter, we also call them "VW Bus"  :) however every horsepower counts with its 60 or 70hp engine as long as the sound stays this way :D

@bren

nice busses you got there, next time we get a free bus, we will make a beer bus, or party bus with a 2000w sound system or something  ;D
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RAF74_Bimmer

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Re: Question for piston engine experts about removing exhaust silencers :)
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2011, 06:38:44 PM »

Exhaust affects power and torque as a function of flow (both speed and volume). An engine develops better torque (especially at the bottom end of the rev range) if the exhaust is flowing quickly enough to help draw combustion gases out of the cylinder. Smaller diameter exhaust pipes will flow more quickly than large diameter ones (exhaust scavenging). However, there is a trade-off: as the revs increase, so too does the volume of exhaust gases. Too much volume through too small a pipe and you will see frictional losses. Thus at higher revs, larger pipes will help the engine to breathe better, but at the expense of lower end torque.

There are a lot of other factors you can include: exhaust pulse waves, reversion chambers, heat, pipe routing, etc. But simply put, if the engine mostly sees low RPM operation, you want a relatively small diameter exhaust to maximize torque in that range. If the engine is mostly used at high RPM, you want a large diameter exhaust to allow the engine to breathe adequately.
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JG54Spookie

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Re: Question for piston engine experts about removing exhaust silencers :)
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2011, 01:39:40 AM »

Nice looking VW there Hans. Just out of curiosity, what year is it? Early '80s? My family used to have an '87 4WD "Syncro" T3. We took that thing on off-road Jeep trails, if you can believe it. Sadly, it was sold in the late '90s after we put over 270,000 miles on it. It was the last VW anyone in my family had, ending a long love affair with beetles, busses, and "squarebacks" over two generations going back to the early '60s.   :(

Anyway, sorry for hijacking your thread with my nostalgia  :-[
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HansHansen

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Re: Question for piston engine experts about removing exhaust silencers :)
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2011, 06:24:58 AM »

Definately very intresting Bimmer, I will keep that in mind  ;)

@Spooky
Sorry, all i can tell is that it was made after 1982, because the engine is liquid cooled. my guess would be the late 80s. maybe i can find more information about the car...
dont mind hijacking my thread, its just for fun anyway  8)  VW busses are still good cars and they still cost a lot of money, especially those models you can use as caravan and syncro models of course  :)
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razor1uk

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Re: Question for piston engine experts about removing exhaust silencers :)
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2011, 11:21:47 AM »

I wrote some paragraphs, but forgot to press post before double checking... oh well
  I'd keep at the minimum the exhaust header pipes on - the ones that come from the cylinder head to join th the next exhaust section - more to aid gas flow away from cylider heads and them building up and softening or melting any wiring or belts in the engine bay.
  The exhaust smell in the cabin is due to a lack of the exhaust gas being directed far enough away behind the vehicle due to the missing exhaust components.
  I suggest looking in auto forums speciallising in flat engined VW's - but I'm sure you done this.

  Not wholey related, but engine related - how about making some megaphone exhausts for low - mid rpm 'field' usage, not so dissimilar to those on this old (meant in the nicest possible way) bike - albiet not designed to 'come-on-song' at 17,300rpm like this bikes are from 1966.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaRop_ZMwo0&NR=1
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dinosaurJR

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Re: Question for piston engine experts about removing exhaust silencers :)
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2011, 02:16:59 AM »

This is fascinating!

If you plan on running the motor with no exhaust other than the manifolds I have one suggestion - buy a gas mask. Even thought the engine is mounted at the rear, the combustion gasses will find a way into the cabin - you have to sit in traffic some time... These gasses will not have been passed through any sort of CAT and will be rich in NoX gasses (these can kill you and/or give you cancer), carbon monoxide (will make you sleepy and nauseous/kill you), unburned hydrocarbons (these will make you nauseous and will be present in large quantities as the engine will not be running efficiently at all without some sort of exhaust system). I point to the "smell of gas" you noted earlier.

Now, to the technical part - like RAF74_bimmer said - the lack of the scavenging effect from the exhaust system will drop the torque output of the engine right down. This is important, as the engine in question is a truck engine - it was not derived from a car engine. As a truck engine it is designed for torque (pulling power for hauling loads), not horsepower - it generates (assuming it is in a good state of tune / well serviced) from 59bhp to 72bhp - this is not a great deal. Boxer engines also are, generally speaking, more torquey than they are powerful. I would say this kind of modification is not tuning to the strengths of the engine.

Added to this, it is probably going to kill the engine - now, hear me out - you like the sound of the engine, yes? This means you will rev it to hear the sound, yes? I can guarantee that you will do this from cold (everyone who fits a modified exhaust system, myself included, does this) - adding to engine wear. Next, the engine will not be producing anywhere near as much torque as it should, with the exhaust sitting in the garage, so you will give it more right foot in order to get up to the same speed as you would have with the exhaust on - the engine will have to rev higher to generate the equivalent torque. Higher revs equals more heat equals faster oil degradation equals faster engine wear rate. Also to be considered is the hot exhaust gasses melting any components / the wiring loom in the engine bay (as the esteemed gentleman above me has mentioned). You will also get much higher engine compartment temperatures as the hot gasses are not being diverted away by the exhaust - they are sticking around in the engine bay. This might relate to hotter running temperature, so you better have a 100% functional cooling system.

The sound will be terrible anyway - without anything to damp the clatter of the valve train, it will sound like a tractor - pretty much everything does - you will hear the thrash and chatter of the cam followers, the valves, and over the top will be a droning sound that will be really annoying on longer journeys.

Like razor1uk - I suggest either buying or making something that removes the silencers and replaces them with straight through pipes. With a nice tail pipe it will look really cool, you shouldn't lose too much performance and you will not gas yourself in the process. Should sound better too. You can find universal back boxes and pipe at a lot of places, just do a quick web search.

Then, look into the induction system. You should always mod the exhaust system and the induction system together to get the best sound / power gains.
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HansHansen

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Re: Question for piston engine experts about removing exhaust silencers :)
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2011, 07:35:59 AM »

@razor1uk
we didnt plan to remove those pipes also, because as you said this would burn all wiring and plastic covers and stuff... but we already thought about making 4 of those conical pipes, however we dont want to spend much money, so we have to build some ourselves  :D we thought about aluminium because: 1. this car will drive 2km (4x500m) every weekend from spring to fall, so the pipes probably wont get too hot. 2.aluminium is easier to work with, it would be very hard to form steel pipes conical  ;)

@dinosaurJR

as mentioned before: there will be no traffic because it will be driven only on private property  :D and maybe i was a bit unprecise about the smell of gas :D its not in the cabin, it smells from the outside  ;)

now about the scavenging effect or backpressure: in this topic http://www.maxrev.de/rueckstau-t30473.htm (unfortunately in german) the author has som equite intresting theories:
because of the lack of backpressure, gases can leave the cylinder faster, so there will be more space for the fresh air/gas mixture wich will result in a better combustion, this leads to a better performance. (the old muffler didnt look like resonance and backpressure anyway: it had holes and didnt look like something that would send shockwaves back)
he also says: because in low rpm´s the are not much exhaust gases anyway, the backpressure wont influence the performance that much. on high rmp´s its better to get the exhaust gasses out as fast as possible.

i hope you get my point  :) ithas become quite an intresting discussion  :D
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congo

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Re: Question for piston engine experts about removing exhaust silencers :)
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2011, 09:10:26 AM »

Destroying a myth.
 


Some say that "an engine needs backpressure to work correctly." Is this true?

No. It would be more correct to say, "a perfectly stock engine that cannot adjust its fuel delivery needs backpressure to work correctly." This idea is a myth. As with all myths, however, there is a hint of fact with this one. Particularly, some people equate backpressure with torque, and others fear that too little backpressure will lead to valve burning.

The first reason why people say "backpressure is good" is because they believe that increased backpressure by itself will increase torque, particularly with a stock exhaust manifold. Granted, some stock manifolds act somewhat like performance headers at low RPM, but these manifolds will exhibit poor performance at higher RPM. This, however does not automatically lead to the conclusion that backpressure produces more torque. The increase in torque is not due to backpressure, but to the effects of changes in fuel/air mixture, which will be described in more detail below.

The other reason why people say "backpressure is good" is because they hear that cars (or motorcycles) that have had performance exhaust work done to them would then go on to burn exhaust valves. Now, it is true that such valve burning has occurred as a result of the exhaust mods, but it isn't due merely to a lack of backpressure.

The internal combustion engine is a complex, dynamic collection of different systems working together to convert the stored power in gasoline into mechanical energy to push a car down the road. Anytime one of these systems are modified, that mod will also indirectly affect the other systems, as well.

Now, valve burning occurs as a result of a very lean-burning engine. In order to achieve a theoretical optimal combustion, an engine needs 14.7 parts of oxygen by mass to 1 part of gasoline (again, by mass). This is referred to as a stochiometric (chemically correct) mixture, and is commonly referred to as a 14.7:1 mix. If an engine burns with less oxygen present (13:1, 12:1, etc...), it is said to run rich. Conversely, if the engine runs with more oxygen present (16:1, 17:1, etc...), it is said to run lean. Today's engines are designed to run at 14.7:1 for normally cruising, with rich mixtures on acceleration or warm-up, and lean mixtures while decelerating.

Getting back to the discussion, the reason that exhaust valves burn is because the engine is burning lean. Normal engines will tolerate lean burning for a little bit, but not for sustained periods of time. The reason why the engine is burning lean to begin with is that the reduction in backpressure is causing more air to be drawn into the combustion chamber than before. Earlier cars (and motorcycles) with carburetion often could not adjust because of the way that backpressure caused air to flow backwards through the carburetor after the air already got loaded down with fuel, and caused the air to receive a second load of fuel. While a bad design, it was nonetheless used in a lot of vehicles. Once these vehicles received performance mods that reduced backpressure, they no longer had that double-loading effect, and then tended to burn valves because of the resulting over-lean condition. This, incidentally, also provides a basis for the "torque increase" seen if backpressure is maintained. As the fuel/air mixture becomes leaner, the resultant combustion will produce progressively less and less of the force needed to produce torque.

Modern BMWs don't have to worry about the effects described above, because the DME (car's computer) that controls the engine will detect that the engine is burning leaner than before, and will adjust fuel injection to compensate. So, in effect, reducing backpressure really does two good things: The engine can use work otherwise spent pushing exhaust gas out the tailpipe to propel the car forward, and the engine breathes better. Of course, the DME's ability to adjust fuel injection is limited by the physical parameters of the injection system (such as injector maximum flow rate and fuel system pressure), but with exhaust backpressure reduction, these limits won't be reached.

- Adapted from Thomas V.
 
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